Vintage Rock Podcast

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Music Is My Life (Berklee Online)

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Pat Healy:  Welcome back to the Music Is My Life podcast from Berklee Online.  I'm your host Pat Healy, and I hope you had a great summer.  I know mine sure was eventful, and I am proud to welcome as the first guest of this brand new season Colin Blunstone.  A Rock and Roll Hall of Famer as the lead singer of the Zombies, he began playing with that band as a teenager, and though that band had a long hiatus from the late sixties through the turn of the century, the Zombies have been playing together again for more than twenty years, which is, like, five times as long as they were together in their original incarnation.  The Zombies are doing a special live stream on Veeps.com on Saturday September 18th.  Visit thezombies.veeps.com for more info, but before you do that, take a listen to Colin Blunstone's fascinating life in music, which began with his uncles.  Let's let him tell you all about it.

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Colin:  When I was about ten or eleven, a lot of them emigrated, some to America, actually, some to Canada, some to New Zealand and Australia, but I remember those, those early days, particularly at Christmas, hearing my uncles all play.  They were wonderful players and very good singers as well, harmony singers.  They were absolutely spectacular, and I think it did make a big impression on me.  Certainly, that's my earliest memory.

Pat:  An- and how 'bout yourself?  When did you start playing?  You know, when, when did you sit at a piano and then, then open your mouth and say, "I, I have a gift for this, this whole singing thing"?

Colin:  Well, in some ways, it came as a bit of a surprise, to be absolutely honest.  I did have quite a good voice as a young child.  I, I was picked on to sing a solo in, in school a, a few times.  Then when my voice changed- music wasn't a big thing in, in my school, and I didn't think about it an awful lot, uh, until I, I got a guitar.  I loved rock and roll:  Elvis, Buddy Holly, Ricky Nelson, um, Eddie Cochran, all those people, Little Richard, Chuck Berry.  And I managed to talk to my parents into buying me a guitar.  It was a Framus Atlantis, I think it was called.  It was an acoustic guitar.  I think it was made in East Germany.  Then I started picking out a few tunes, and that was the start of it all, really.  I, I sang all the time, you know, when I was walking along to get the bus or going anywhere.  People used to call me "the boy who sings."  The neighbors [did].  They didn't know my name, but they knew I was the- I just used to sing all the time.  My big break came when- at my school, we were- it was quite a strict school, and we had to sit in alphabetical order, and I sat next to a guy called Paul Arnold, his name being- starting with A, and me starting with B, and he lived in the next street to Rod Argent.  This is so much chance in all this, you know?  Paul Arnold lived in the next street to Rod Argent.  Rod really wanted to put a band together.  He'd been to see his cousin Jim Rodford play in the local big band.  They were called the Bluetones, and they were really good, and as soon as he saw the Bluetones play, he knew he wanted to form a band.  In quite a sort of strange sort of way, he approached four or five people.  At school, they- at his school, at Rod Argent's school, they had an army corps, and he watched the drummers, the side-drummers, playing when they were marching, and he thought that Hugh Grundy was the best one, so he approached him.  Hugh had never played a full set of drums.  Remember we were fifteen years old at this point.  There was a folk, uh, club there, and Paul Atkinson was playing there, and he [Rod] thought he [Paul] was the best guitarist.  He approached him.  Paul Arnold was his mate from home in the next street, and Paul was making a, an electric bass guitar in woodwork.  He'd never played one.  That's what got Paul in, and then Paul said to me one day- out of the blue, he said, "You've, you've got a guitar, haven't you?  Haven't you got a-" and I said, "Yeah, I mean I've got a guitar," and he said, "Do you wanna be in a band?" and that was my audition for the Zombies.

Pat:  That's so interesting that you were initially recruited as the guitarist.

Colin:  I was, and there was a little bit of friction about this at the first, uh, our first rehearsal.  All we played in our first rehearsal was an acoustic song called "Malagueña."  Rod was gonna be the singer, so he didn't actually do anything in the first rehearsal until we had a coffee break halfway through, and he went over to a broken-down old piano in the corner of the room.  If there hadn't been a piano there, we would have never known.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  He went over, and he- I remember it clear as day:  he played "Nutrocker" by Bee Bumble and the Stingers, and, you know, he was a sensational keyboard player at fifteen years old.  We were nowhere near, you know, his, his talent, nowhere near it, and I'd only just met him, and I just went over to him, and I said, "Rod, really" or "Whatever your name is" I've only just met him; I couldn't remember his name.  I said, "Real- you should play keyboards in the band," and he said, "No, no, we want this to be a rock band; it's gotta be guitars," and, and that- it was left like that, and then at the end of the first rehearsal, I was just about to put my guitar away, and I just sang, to myself, I sang a Ricky Nelson song, and to this day, I can't remember which one it was, but it would probably be "Poor Little Fool" or "Hello Mary Lou," and I was just playing it to myself, and Rod said, "I'll tell you what:  if you'll be the lead singer, I'll play keyboards," and that, essentially, is how the Zombies came together.

Pat:  That's amazing.  So how was rehearsal number two?  Wha- was it with that reconfigured lineup?

Colin:  It was.  It was a bit tragic to be honest because dear old Jim Rodford, who was, uh, Rod Argent's cousin, and Jim spent twenty years in the Kinks; he played with the Animals; he, he was- he's a wonderful player, and he arranged for us to use all the gear, mostly Vox amplifiers but, um, you know, proper, sophisticated kit, for that first rehearsal.  His band, the Bluetones, had all this wonderful equipment, and we used that in the first rehearsal, and even though we were fairly average, we sounded quite good with all this gear, but at our second rehearsal, we had to use just what we had, and I'm afraid it was, it was a bit grim.  It really was.  Hugh only had a pair of drumsticks, so he had to play on- we had one homemade amplifier and with a homemade speaker, and Hugh played drums on the wooden cabinet of the speaker, and everyone else plugged in to this homemade amplifier.  It was, it was a little bit heartbreaking, really, but we stuck at it, and I think we rehearsed- we could only rehearse at weekends, usually on a Sunday, and we would rehearse every Sunday for a year, and then we played our first gig.  I've gotta be honest:  when we first got together, I wasn't sure we would ever play an actual concert.  Well, "concert" may be a bit grand, actually.  We played at a local youth club.  I wasn't sure we would ever play, but, but we did, and it, and it took about a year.

Pat:  Wow.  And tell me about either the support or wha- what kind of vibes were your family sending out?  Were they over the moon that you were getting involved in music like this, or were they nervous that this would lead to some sort of dead end, or?

Colin:  No, I, I- it, it's, it's always surprised me, but especially when we first started out, I think everyone's parents were very supportive, and, um, we played as an amateur band for about three years, from 1961 to 1964, and even when we got the chance to become a professional band, all the parents - except one set of parents weren't too keen, but most of the parents were really supportive and ce- certainly my parents were, and I, I think they felt it was something that we needed to get out of our systems and, and it would be good to do that while we're young, and looking back, I'm, I'm quite surprised how understanding and supportive they were, but they, they really were.

Pat:  Yeah, who, who'd've thought we'd be talking about it sixty years later, right?

Colin:  I know!  No one's more surprised than me.  I think that most people in those days thought that a career in music would usually be two or three years.  You can, you can hear clips of John Lennon and, and Mick Jagger saying exactly the same thing, and that's kind of what I thought.  In 1964, when we made our first record, I, I thought this would be a wonderful adventure.  I'm not putting it down; I, I thought it was breathtakingly brilliant, but I thought it would probably be a two- or three-year adventure.  Eventually, we, we built up a local following, and we won quite a big rock and roll competition in 1964, which led to a, a record contract with Decca.  Uh, from memory, I think it was probably only for one single, and we were introduced to a, a wonderful producer called Ken Jones.  He was having a talk to us about two weeks before the big day in Decca studios, and he said, "You know, you could always write something for this session."  We- I think we were gonna do- we had this kind of jazz/waltz arrangement on Gershwin's "Summertime."  We were definitely gonna do that, and we probably would have done some kind of rhythm and blues classic alongside it, but he made this suggestion about writing something, and Rod and Chris White went away, and two or three days later, they'd come back with both having written a song, and Rod had written "She's Not There," which I think we all knew was a special song right from the beginning, and we recorded "She's Not There" in that first session, and we recorded Chris's song, which was "You Make Me Feel Good," which went on to be the B-side.  That record went on to be number one in Cashbox in America and probably about number two in Billboard or something like that, so it all happened- although we'd been playing for three years locally, the record side of it happened quite quickly, and I always think that you should accept any success that you have, of course, gratefully, and you, you should, uh- it's wonderful when you have a bit of success, but if you have [the] choice, I think it might have been better if it'd come a little bit later for us because when we recorded "She's Not There," Rod and I were eighteen, and, um, it, it's a little bit young, and we'd already decided the band was gonna be a professional band, and I would have liked to have seen us play those London clubs like the Yardbirds and the [Rolling] Stones did, um, like the Marquee and, uh, Klooks Kleek and some of the wonderful clubs that were around at that time, and, and I think it would have helped us a lot to prepare for having a hit record.  We were slightly thrown in at the deep end, really, and "She's Not There" almost didn't get recorded because when we went to the studio, it was fashionable in those days to have a[n] evening or nighttime session, and we arrived about seven o'clock, and the engineer - we'd never met before - was a very good engineer, but unfortunately, he'd been at a wedding all day, and he was incredibly drunk and also very, very aggressive.  It makes me laugh now when I think back, having been in the business for about sixty years, after twenty minutes in the Decca studio with this crazy man, I thought, "This is not for me.  I- this is definitely not for me," but we, you know, we had a bit of luck.  He, he passed out.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  Flat on the floor, and we had to carry him out, um, up two flights of stairs and put him in a black, uh, London taxi, and actually, I never saw him again to be honest, and his assistant engineer took over, and his name was Gus Dudgeon, and that was Gus Dudgeon's first session ever, and it was our first session ever, and of course, Gus went on to record Elton [John], Kiki Dee, David Bowie, many, many huge artists, but that was Gus Dudgeon's first session.

Pat:  I like to think about how everything that happens, all the extenuating circumstances of any recording add to something, and, and it's almost when you tell me that story I can sense the tension and nervousness oozing out of that recording.  That snap of that beat is so perfect, and, and do you think all that was going, the chaos, added to preserving something different than what would've been preserved with a smooth session?

Colin:  It, it could well be.  It could well be.  I, I do know that sessions and albums and tours never go smoothly.  You've, you've got to be adaptable, you know?  You've, you've gotta be able to make the best of what's going on, and, and sometimes it can add, you know.  There is an energy that comes out of a chaos.

Pat:  Mm-hm.

Colin:  And, um, really, I think it's one of the important things about being a professional musician:  if you wanna be in it as a career, you've gotta just buckle down and, and stay calm, and when people are going crazy, just ignore them.

Pat:  Mm-hm.

Colin:  Just ignore them.

Pat:  That's great advice.  How long did it take before you kind of found that Zombies sound because, you know, from the public's perspective, you arrived fully formed because "She's Not There" has all of the elements of what would become the sound?

Colin:  Yeah, it's true.  I think it was fairly early on.  I mean, I would just say that, um, when we recorded "She's Not There," the guys are playing very basic instruments.  Um, Chris White was playing a, uh, a homemade electric bass

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  and Paul Atkinson was playing a, a, a very- quite inexpensive guitar that had just had a pick-up stuck on it

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  you know?  Uh, Rod was playing, uh, a Hohner Pianet, which was- I think actually Hugh had a, a fairly good drum kit, although he did get another one after "She's Not There," but the Hohner Pianet was kind of the key to everything for us because, uh, to start with, Rod was playing keyboards.  We just used to put a mic into whatever piano was at the venue when we arrived there, and very often, you couldn't really hear him very well, and he used to have to really hammer the keys re- very aggressively, and I could sometimes judge how good the, the evening had gone because at the end of the evening, his thumb would be bleeding, and I would gauge the evening on how much, how much his thumb was bleeding!  But then, um, eventually, he bought this Hohner Pianet.  It was a wonderful little electric piano, and from then on, from that moment, people could really hear him properly, and I think the sound was there then, and it- and also it was add- added to the fact that we always did three-part harmonies, and it wasn't very fashionable at that time.  I know later on, of course, '63 the, the Beatles exploded onto the world and they always used harmonies, but we started before that.  We started in '61, so if you're going to try and put the Zombies' sound in a nutshell, it's, it's very much a, a keyboard-based band that features harmonies, I would've thought, and that came very early on.

Pat:  And there's an act that I don't know if you're familiar with.  It's like a modern rock group called Car Seat Head Rest, and they nailed the Zombies', like, harmony on one of their songs, and I was- it's a song called "Something Soon" by Car Seat Head Rest.  It's really terrific.  I feel like no other act ever really did that.

Colin:  Well, I tell you that the, the secret for us was that Rod was in a cathedral choir for many years, and, and sometimes we would pick him up after Evensong at the cathedral

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  and, and take him to a rock venue and, uh, to play with the Zombies, and Rod really understands harmony.  A lot of it, yeah, comes from him because we're not just playing thirds and fifths or things like that.  They're, they're very specific harmonies.  Also with the Zombies, he had to work with the- with what he was given.  I was a little bit of an ill-disciplined vocalist so he would say to me, "You sing what you think is the melody," more specifically when we came to the choruses with the- "You sing what you think is the melody," and quite often, I would take the top harmony 'cause I've got quite a high voice.  So we would try and set that.  We'd do it a few times so that I've got that in my mind.  Then he would try and give Chris a very simple harmony 'cause Chris has gotta play bass at the same time, and unfortunately, this would often leave Rod with a very complex harmony 'cause he had to fill all the holes, and that's why sometimes it's quite difficult to work out what the Zombie harmonies are:  it's because we didn't do harmonies in a way that a lot of other people did.  We, we had to, to work with the voices that we've got.

Pat:  That's amazing.  And was "The Zombies" your first choice for a name?

Colin:  No, it wasn't.  Uh, we were a bit desperate.  I mean, it seems so silly to talk about names for a band, but it's important, you know.  To start with, we were "The Mustangs," which lasted about two weeks.  We realized there were many other bands called "The Mustangs," and then I think I came up with the idea of "The Sundowners" because there was a film called The Sundowners, and that- it's- I came up with the idea, and even I think that's terrible, and then Paul Arnold, the original bass player, who sat next to me at school, he ca- he came up with the idea of "The Zombies," and I'll be honest:  I don't think I knew what a zombie was.  There was no zombie culture in those days

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  you know.  It was- there were no zombie TV programs or films or anything.  I, I don't think I really understood what a zombie was, but it seemed snappy.  It stuck.  Everybody liked it, probably except me.  I wasn't very keen on it.  It, it just stuck, and we became the Zombies, and Paul Arnold who thought of the name, he's the only guy who ever left the original band.  He wanted to be a doctor, and his studies wouldn't allow him to rehearse with the band, so he had to make a choice, and he chose to leave the band, and Chris White took his place, and Paul went on to be a doctor as well.  He's, he now lives in Edmonton in Canada, and he, and he always comes to see us if we're anywhere near Edmonton, and we always, you know, get him to stand up and get some applause, get the spotlights on him, but he thought of the name "The Zombies."

Pat:  It's especially interesting to speak with you for the context of this podcast because we've done about sixty episodes, and most of the people we speak to, their starting point is the Beatles and the British Invasion, and that's you.  I mean, you're, you're the second band of the British Invasion.  Tell me about what it was like to go to America for the first time at, what?, eighteen, right?

Colin:  I think by the time we got to America, we were just nineteen.  We came in Christmas of 1964 to play the Murray the K Christmas show at the Brooklyn Fox.  Well, you know, first of all, you have to say that all British musicians want to come to America because it's where the blues started.  It's where jazz started.  It's where rock and roll started.  I mean, everyone I've ever met, they're- one of their main aims in life is to come to America to play and, and to see America and, and to research the places where all this wonderful music started, so it was incredibly exciting for us.  I, I can't describe it, and of course, we were very fortunate because we arrived- the week we arrived, "She's Not There" was number one in the charts, so, you know, doors were obviously gonna be open for us, so that was fantastic.  We played at the, the Brooklyn Fox, and we opened on Christmas Day, and I think there were about fourteen acts on the bill.  In those days, it was fashionable to have many acts just playing one or two songs.  I remember Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles, the Shirelles.  The Nashville Teens were on there.  Uh, the Shangri-Las.  There were lots of wonderful artists, and we had to follow Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles, and they were sensational, and they brought the house down every show.  We played, um, eight shows a day.  You, you just did a couple of songs, and then the rest of the guys came, and it- so it went through the whole day, and every time, Patti LaBelle brought the house down, and we had to follow them, and this is our first time in the States, so there was a little bit of anxiety in the wings before we went on, but it was OK, you know.  We did alright.

Pat:  So you get back, and then you, you know, it's probably all systems go with recording again, right?

Colin:  Well, it is.  I mean... to be honest- I have to choose my words very carefully here, but we were very poorly managed, absolutely terribly managed, and one of the things that happened is that we were, we were playing all the time, and at the same time trying to write and, and record, and Decca really put the pressure on.  They wanted singles every six weeks.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  And in a way, it's so short-sighted because if you haven't got the material, why put the single out, you know?  You're- in those days, it was a very singles-orientated [sic] market, and if you, if you had a single out that wasn't a hit, that could be the end of your career

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  but they would really put this pressure on you to, um, to get singles out, and in fact, in the U.K., the singles went in a different order to the States.  They forced us to record the only song that anyone had got.  It was called "You Make Me Feel..." "Good"?  "Bad"?*  Whatever it was!  It wasn't very memorable, and, um, it wasn't a hit, but in America, we skipped that one, so it went from "She's Not There" to "Tell Her No," and, and of course, that was quite successful, but Decca never stopped pushing to get singles all the time, and, and we were working the whole time.  It's so hard to write and to get into the studio when you're just going from one tour to another, so it was quite tough, and because we were very young, you know, we were, we were very naïve [and] we weren't protected by a management company, they were absolutely dreadful.  Um...

Pat:  If th- if that, if that's you choosing your words carefully, I don't know- I don't wanna know what you'd have to say without choosing them carefully.

Colin:  I probably could end up in court very easily, um, if I were to say what I really think.  They weren't very good.  Eventually, the hit - you know, as with all bands, I suppose - the hits stopped coming, and it, it got a bit tougher, but we'd already established a fan base all around the world, so we were very fortunate that we could play- we didn't have to just play in the U.K. and the States.  We could play all around the world, and it's one of the things when the band finished:  we realized that we always had a hit somewhere.

Pat:  Hmm.

Colin:  But there was no internet in those days.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  It was hard to find out what was going on around the world.  Maybe if you had a good management company, they, they could find out, you know, but

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  but we didn't, and it was after the band finished [that] we realized, you know, we always had a hit somewhere.

Pat:  So then, when you get down to the business of recording the full-length, which is so interesting- I mean, everybody loves these stories of, "Well, there was-" criminally overlooked in its time, but when you were recording that album, did you all have a sense of purpose and, and kind of realize the quality of the material that you were laying down at that point?  And, and the production, it sounds beautiful.

Colin:  Well, I must say that we pro- I think we all remember that album a - or those times - a little bit differently.  I've been amazed when I've been with all the founding members - surviving fou- founding members of the band - doing an interview and realize that we all remember things very differently.  We were really fortunate to be in Abbey Road at that time.  It, it was the best studio in the world, I would've thought.  We were working with incredible engineers:  Peter Vince and Geoff Emerick.  They'd both actually just been working with the Beatles, but particularly Geoff Emerick.  We followed the Beatles into Abbey Road.  They'd just finished Sgt. Pepper['s Lonely Hearts Club Band], and there'd been a lot of upgrades in the studio to satisfy the Beatles' demands.  They wanted- you- you know, they weren't- they were- in a, in a friendly way, I think, they were competing with the Beach Boys, and so it- "We want more tracks.  We gotta have more tracks," and up until then, everyone had been recording on four-track machines, and in the States, they had eight-track machines, and they managed in Abbey Road to, in effect - it's not a technical term, this - lash two four-track machines together, which gave you seven tracks, and so we were benefitting from some of the innovations that the, the Beatles had brought into Abbey Road, so we were very fortunate to be recording there at that time, but we had an incredibly tight recording budget, so we had to record very quickly, and how we got 'round this was:  we rehearsed really extensively before we went into the studio, and it amazes me- I mean, I've been involved in lots of projects where the rehearsing goes on in the studio.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  And it amazes me that more people don't do that.  You know, we, we knew- when we went into the studio, we knew the songs.  We knew the key.  We knew the arrangement.  We're just looking for a perfor- the perfor- the performance.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  That's all.  So we recorded very quickly, and my feelings at the end of the album was [sic] that we'd done the best we possibly could.  That's, that's how I felt about it, regardless of, uh, uh, critical acclaim or, or, or no critical acclaim and- or commercial success or anything like that.  I just felt it was the best we could possibly do, which made it kind of tough when the first single was released and it didn't make any impression.  In the U.K., this is.  It was "Care of Cell 44."  I think eventually in America, they released three singles.  Either the third or the fourth was "Time of the Season."  It was a real struggle, and even when "Time of the Season" was a big hit, Odessey and Oracle wasn't.  It went into the Billboard charts for two weeks at around 98 and then disappeared, and something magical happened:  over a s- like, ten-year period, people just started talking about this album.  No one was promoting it.  No one was marketing it.  It was just word of mouth, and in America, people like Tom Petty and more recently Dave Grohl, and in the U.K. in particular, Paul Weller has really supported this album, and if he's, Pau- if Paul Weller's talking to someone and the subject of music comes up and they haven't heard this album, he'll go and buy them a copy.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  And I know that because he's told me.  It just was a word-of-mouth thing, and it, it just came about that Rolling Stone actually named it as the hundredth best album of all time, and when you look at the albums that are around there, you know, it's all- it's Beatles, Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, Simon & Garfunkel

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  and it's, it's just phenomenal that this album was pretty much forgotten at the time and then rediscovered years later.  It seems almost as though it's had a life-force of its own because it, it sort of baffled through all on its own without anybody really helping, except I must just say that Al Kooper, he was in his first day as a producer at CBS, and he'd brought this album back from England.  He'd just been in England.  It was very courageous of him:  he went to Clive Davis on his first day working at CBS, and he said, "We have to release this album.  Forget everything else.  We have to release this album," and Clive Davis said, "Well, it's fine.  We- actually, we own that album, but we were just gonna pass on it.  We weren't even gonna release it," but it, it's only because of Al Kooper fighting [in] our corner that the album was ever released [in America].

Pat:  Right, and, and there's- I, you know, I never know what to trust about the information that's out there on, on the web, and Wikipedia has an anecdote about you, you, you weren't even that keen on "Time of the Season" when, uh, it first came out.  Is that true?

Colin:  It is true.  It wasn't one of my favorite tracks on the album.  To be honest, I think to me at the time, the most commercial track was "Care of Cell 44," I think.  Also, "Time of the Season" was the last track we recorded**, and it was recorded in a slightly pressured environment because we were running out of money.  Rod had only finished the song in the morning

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  and in the afternoon, I, I hadn't really got the phrasing right, and, you know, bless him, he was coaching me from the, from the control room.  He was being really, really patient, but I'd got a- it's i- ironic, I've got a red light in front of me and a big clock, and I could see we were running out of time, and so he's going, "No, can you put this- can you put that on the beat?  Can you push this phrase?" and it got very heated between Rod and I.  I couldn't tell you the language.  It wasn't good.  And of course, 'cause I'm talking through the mic, this is going to all the engineers and all the Abbey Roa- Abbey Road staff - there's a crew and everything there - and all the band, it- quite a forceful argument going on, and it's always struck me as ironic that while we were arguing, the lyric to the song is "It's the time of the season for loving."  An hour later, it was all forgotten, but there certainly was a, a verbal battle going on while "Time of the Season"- while the lead vocal was going down.

Pat:  That's amazing.  It- wi- er- time for- time of the season for finishing the album.

Colin:  Yea- absolutely, yes!  That's what it was.  CBS Records gave us a thousand pounds to record the album, and I know, you know, money's different now, but even in those days, to be in Abbey Road and have just a thousand pounds, you had to record fast.  You really did.

Pat:  One thing I wondered about that song, which is strange, but, I mean, you know, there's the, the, the line "Who's your daddy" which has come to, come to mean something different in pop culture, and do you think that the song led to that?

Colin:  Um, it certainly could have, yeah, and I think Rod got the idea of that line- it's, it's sort of a nod towards Gershwin's "Summertime."

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  That-

Pat:  Right, right.

Colin:  There is a line in there.

Pat:  Right, "Your daddy's rich."  That's so interesting.

Colin:  And that was one of the first songs that we ever played, way back- you know, we recorded it in our, our first session

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  when we recorded "She's Not There."  We recorded "Summertime" as well.  Uh, I mentioned it earlier on.  We, we had this sort of jazz/waltz arrangement of it, and I think that was the idea of it:  it was just sort of a nod to "Summertime," and I, I know that it has come to be quite a popular phrase, and maybe it did come from the song.  I, I'd like to think it did.

Pat:  Right.  It, it's so interesting, too, because the way it's presented is so different from "Summertime," but when you say it, it makes sense, and I love the cockiness of that:  "Is he rich like me?" and, and were you ev- you weren't even rich at the time, were you?

Colin:  My goodness, no.  Um, the- as often happens with bands, the three non-writers, uh, were in a completely different financial situation to the main writers.  I always think, you know, if you haven't got a good song, you can all pack up and go home.  It's the song's, uh, the, the cornerstore of everything.  We were very fortunate to have two sophisticated writers in the band, and I'm really glad that they were- their- the financial stream didn't go through our manager's office.  It was- they were paid direct, and so, um, I'm really glad it worked out that way for them, but it was quite tough for the other guys in the band.  For Hugh Grundy, Paul Atkins- Atkinson, and myself.  We certainly didn't have any money, no, and, I mean, that was, again, one of the reasons why the band finished.  In fact, um, Paul Atkinson had just got married.  He just felt [that] as he just got married, he had to try and get some money together, and that was one of the main reasons that, that the band finished.

Pat:  You do the album, and then you break up, and then- did you have any awareness of what was going on in the States with all these fake Zombies bands going around?

Colin:  I did a little bit, yeah.  Uh, it, it did filter back to us, and in particular, I know Chris White was in New York at one point, and he was in Rolling Stone's offices, and he phoned this manager who had got a, a fake Zombies band and was talking to him, and the, the manager didn't know that Chris was, um, a member of the Zombies.  He just thought he was, uh, a journalist, and the manager was explaining that they wanted to have a Zombies band to honor the lead singer in the band who had been killed in a car crash.

Pat:  Oh ho!

Colin:  So he was telling this story to Chris, and in the end, Chris had to just, you know, own up and say, "Listen.  That's ridiculous," but I found a clip from Rolling Stone, although they didn't say I was killed in a car crash, I did find this clip that a guy did definitely say I'd been, I'd been killed, you know.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  And that's one of the reasons that they started this Zombies band, but you know, that's just, that's just silly.  They just found a, uh, a gap in the market.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  There was no band.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  And there was a big record, so they got out there.

Pat:  I, I love that.  I don't know if it's irony or symbolism or life imitating art, but you are then literally a zombie.  You are back from the dead.

Colin:  This is true.

Pat:  So the band breaks up, and then, uh, right now we're- you're gearing up to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of your debut, so- which is so great, and there's [sic] so many great things about that album that I, you know- were, were you aware of what Nick Drake was doing at the time because the, the parallels musically, they're there, and it seems like he never had any popularity while he was doing what he was doing.

Colin:  Are you talking about my so- first solo album?

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  Yeah, One Year.  No, I'd never heard a Nick Drake album before One Year.

Pat:  Maybe he heard One Year.

Colin:  Mm, I'm not sure.  I think maybe his first album might have been a little bit before One Year***, but I hadn't heard anything by him at, at that point, and I mean, One Year came together in a very- sort of- very natural way in that, you know, I'd met up again with - I, I still saw them socially, but we decided to work together again - Rod and Chris.  I was coming home from a party in Chris White's car, and he said, "You know, why don't you come work with Rod and I [sic]?  We, we've got a production deal with CBS Records, and, uh, you know, we'd love to do an album with you," and I, I said, "Yeah, great, sounds [like] a fabulous idea," and we were, we were back in, um, Abbey Road, Studio Three, where we did Odessey and Oracle, [with] Peter Vince, uh, engineering.  Actually, the first two tracks for One Year, we, we did in another studio, but we eventually found our, our home, Abbey Road.  The other eight tracks were all recorded there, and it was mixed in Abbey Road, and we started off just doing a couple of tunes, uh, um, "She Loves the Way They Love Her," which is the first track on the album, which, you know, in some ways, I think, sounds like perhaps the Zombies would have sounded like

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  if they'd have kept going.  In fact, it's Argent and me.  It's all the guys in Argent, and we also started "Misty Roses," a wonderful Tim Hardin song, and that was in a- another studio, but we realized that "Misty Roses" was incredibly short, and we, we needed to do something, and I, I think it, it might have Rod that come up with the idea of perhaps we could do some wild strings on there.  He'd been listening to a lot of Bartók, and, uh, we were introduced to a string arranger called Chris Gunning.  I wasn't really involved too much in giving Chris, uh, an idea of what we wanted.  I think it more came from Rod, and, um, he, he was talking a lot about Bartók, as I said, and that's what Chris came up with, and I think it's absolutely breathtaking.  So "Misty Roses" was very distinctly recorded in two parts.  The first part was with just a- sort of a jazz guitar and then this wonderful string quartet piece that's probably two or three minutes long, and then it plays out with this string quartet and me, and when, when I first heard that - the play-out bit - I thought, "How am I gonna be able to sing over tha- what that quartet's playing?" but it, it, it works, you know.  You just, you just have to get stuck in, and it works, and it was, it was so successful that we went on and did most of the rest of the album with Chris Gunning, and one of the tracks - it's actually the last song - again, "Time of the Season" was the last song - uh, a Denny Laine song called "Say You Don't Mind," uh, went on to be a big hit in the U.K. and ev- you know, there's so much chance in these things.  We used to play that song with the original Zombies.  We used to close the show with "Say You Don't Mind."

Pat:  Wow!

Colin:  And we tried to record it for the One Year album as a rock song, as we'd played it with the Zombies, but it didn't work, so we went back to Chris Gunning, and he came up with this magical arrangement.  It's actually a twenty-one-piece string orchestra.  It's not a string quartet.

Pat:  Wow.

Colin:  But it, it works with a string quartet.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  It's a twenty-one-piece orchestra, and, um, yeah, it was a huge hit.

Pat:  That's interesting that you say that about "How am I gonna sing?" because when, when I listen to a lot of the songs on that album, I just think, "How does he know when to come in?" you know?  There's, there's no beat, but you find the harmony instantaneously, and, and it- wa- was that a challenge for you?

Colin:  It was on some of them.  I think really it's just working at it, you know.  You just, you just have to get stuck in.  The, the song I think I find most challenging is "Her Song."  It's a song by Chris White, and it's- sometimes it's difficult to know where you are in the song beatwise.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  Because what they're playing is so drifty, and, and it's not an obvious backing for that song.  I find that can be a bit of a challenge.  The other songs I think, you know- I think I'm OK on the other songs, and, you know, there's talk- I- with this pandemic, I don't know what's happening with live music, but, um, there is talk of me coming over in November to, to play, uh, concerts across the country and playing One Year in its entirety to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the album, so I, I hope that that comes off.  I really do.

Pat:  Also another "Is this true about the internet?" at, at one point did you- you, you became an insurance clerk?  Was that after the Zombies and before One Year?

Colin:  It was.  Uh, the three non-writers all, all took jobs.  They had to.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  I had- didn't have any money.  It was the first job I was offered.  I didn't think that I was born to be an insurance clerk.  I-

Pat:  OK.

Colin:  It was the first job I was offered, and in a way it helped me because I worked in the middle of London in a very busy insurance office.  Uh, the phones were ringing constantly, and, and I was really sad, you- and, um, probably a bit depressed about the band finishing, but I didn't have any opportunity to dwell on it because, uh, I had to throw myself into this job.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  And, um, and I, I stayed there for nearly a year, I think, and then when "Time of the Season" was a big hit in the States, I started to get offers to record, and I got back into the music business.

Pat:  That must have come at the right time for your morale.

Colin:  Well, it did.  I- It was "Time of the Season" or, or life as an insurance clerk, so I...

Pat:  Right, right.

Colin:  It, it was, uh, it was no choice, really.  Once "Time of the Season" started to happen, I was off.

Pat:  Right.  And, and when you were playing gigs at this time, would, would you play Zombies numbers?  I mean, I, I know you had "Smokey Day" was even on the album and a lot of the songs that [the] Zombies played.

Colin:  Um, I'm trying to remember.  Uh, uh, yeah, I did start playing about '71.  I, in fact, I did the first ELO tour when-

Pat:  Wow!

Colin:  The, the first tour they did in the U.K. I did it with them.  I don't think I played many Zombie tunes on that tour, but over the years, I have.  We- but I have a- I still have a solo band now.  I still, in- if there's any gaps, I still go out and play as a solo artist.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  And I have a sort of a gentleman's agreement with Rod that I won't do too many Zombies tunes, so basically, I usually just do "She's Not There" and "Time of the Season."

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  You know.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  And, and leave the rest of the Zombies' repertoire for the Zombies.

Pat:  Right.  And, and the Zombies- I think- correct me if I'm wrong.  When I saw you, you played, like, "Hold Your Head Up," the Argent tune, right?

Colin:  We do usually play that.  Well, you know, Rod produced it.  Rod, Rod played it.  Chris White actually wrote it.  I don't think anybody minds that we- such a great song, and we've got a definite connection, and we also- sometimes we play, uh, "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" because again, uh, Russ Ballard wrote that, but that's a- another Argent song, and a lot of people think it's a Kiss song, but obviously, Argent recorded it years before Kiss did it.

Pat:  Right.  And so then, then you have the second album, E- Ennismore.  That's how I pronounce it, right?  And on that album what's exciting to me is that you're kind of finding different things to do with your voice that you weren't necessarily doing previously.

Colin:  Well, possibly.  I, I think for me Ennismore was more, uh, an album where I was discovering my songwriting capabilities, and I wrote- I think I wrote probably seven of the songs on that album, and I find it very natural and- I mean it's, it's kind of obvious really, but, uh, it, it's much easier for me to sing songs that I wrote, so maybe that's what you're, you're seeing or you're hearing there:  that it's my more natural singing voice because if you're written the song, it's very, very easy to record it.  When you're recording other people's songs, I think you have to put a lot more effort into it.

Pat:  Now were you always writing?  Uh, I mean, because o- once we start seeing Colin Blunstone credits on the songs, you know, they're, they're really accomplished songs.  We- were you writing and taking ideas to the other people in the Zombies, or was it just understood that Rod and Chris were kinda...

Colin:  I always thought that songwriters were in a sort of a, a different career path to musicians.  I thought- I didn't know that musicians could write their own songs, and, and to a large extent, that was true before the Beatles.  Artists would go to publishers or songwriters to get their material, but the Beatles changed all that.  When I saw Rod and Chris writing songs, I thought it was really exciting that they could do that, and I just tried to write as best I could, and I did write two songs for the Zombies, um, the original Zombies, and then after the Zombies finished, I kept on trying to write, and, you know, the more you try, the more songs come, and eventually, hopefully, they get a bit more sophisticated as well because I don't have any formal musical education, you know, I'm- I am literally making- sitting there and just making up a song as it, as it comes along, and certainly at the time of Ennismore, uh, I, I did have a lot of material, and I think it was a lot to do with the fact [that] I lived in a flat for a time in a place called Ennismore Gardens in London - it's just at the back of the Albert Hall - with a couple of other guys.  Uh, one was a singer/songwriter called Duncan Browne.  He, he's sadly no longer with us, but if you get the chance to check out his albums

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  uh, they're absolutely fabulous.  He was also in a, a band called Metro at one time, and they have one or two albums.  So there was Duncan and myself and his manager, who was called Patrick Lacey, and we all played guitar, and we used to just stay up very, very late, may- nearly all night, just playing guitar, and, and it just really helped me develop as a songwriter.  I, I lived in that flat for a year, and I suddenly found- you know, it just freed up my ideas, and I suddenly found I could write lots of songs, and that's why I called my second album Ennismore.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  After that flat where, where we were just playing guitars all the time, and it, it was a wonderful time, and I think that's where I found my feet as a songwriter.

Pat:  So then you're, you're playing more, and wh- when is, when is the first Zombies reunion?  It's not until, like, 2000-something, right?

Colin:  It's nearly that, yeah.  I, I was working with Rod, um- Rod produced one or two of my albums and some singles.  I did some shows with him.  Um, you know, I was still seeing him all the time, but we weren't working regularly together, and then in- and I have to say Rod remembers this differently, but, um, this is how I remember it:  in 1999, I was working as a solo artist, and I had a keyboard player who was a bit unreliable.  He had a slight problem in that if anyone offered him a gig and encouraged him to play his own songs - this was the key - and say, "Yeah, we'd love you to come and play in our coffee bar to five people and play your own songs," he just- he wouldn't turn up for my gigs, and it, it was getting scary, you know.  Um, I was- I never knew if he was gonna turn up or not, and I thought, "I wonder if Rod would consider doing a few gigs" 'cause he'd been working as a producer.  He hadn't played live much in the last few years, and I just took a chance and said, you know, "I've got these six dates left, and would you consider doing them?" and he said, "Yeah, yeah, I'd like to, but I only wanna do those six dates, very definitely only wanna do those six dates," and I thought, "Well, fantastic," and it, it worked again as soon as we were back on stage.  It worked.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  Uh, the, the combination be- between him and I, and although he was only gonna do the six dates, here we are twenty-something years later, and we're still, we're still playing, but originally, you know, there was no idea of reforming the Zombies.  We didn't play many Zombie tunes.  We had no idea that there was a[n] interest in the band.  Uh, it may be hard for people to believe that, but, um, once we started playing, we realized from the audience that they wanted to hear more Zombie tunes.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  And then eventually, after- it was probably six or seven years, we thought, "Listen, we're playing a Zombies show.  Let's talk to Chris White and Hugh Grundy about us using the name," and, and they were fi- uh, they were [a] little concerned to start with, but in the end, they said- they gave us their blessing, and we became the, the second incarnation of the Zombies, and, and we played a Zombies set.

Pat:  Didn't either Hugh or Chris join for a little bit?

Colin:  They did!  Can I just say that although we did play lots of the original Zombie tunes, we were always writing new songs and always wri- recording new albums.  We've recorded four or five albums since we got back together again, and the last one, Still Got That Hunger, actually got into the Billboard top hundred.  I think it was 2008, Chris White got the idea of forming a concert to celebrate the fortieth anniversary of Odessey and Oracle.  Everybody thought it was a pretty good idea, and it was really funny actually:  Rod and I had this conversation - it may have been driven by me - and I said, "Listen, we're out playing all the time.  We need, we need to check before we commit to this- we need to check if Chris and Hugh can play these songs."  Not, not being mean, but it's important.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  You know, they hadn't played professionally in thirty-something years, so we got together to play Odessey and Oracle through, and Rod and I hadn't really rehearsed it at all.  We presumed, you know, we- 'cause we'd been out playing, we'd be fine.  Hugh Grundy and Chris White had rehearsed extensively.  They were note-perfect, absolutely note-perfect.  Rod and I were all over the place, so it's a- it was a bit embarrassing, actually.  It was a bit embarrassing.

Pat:  [indistinct beneath Colin's comment]

Colin:  Um, but obviously, that was good news, and we were gonna do one night at the Shepherd's Bush Empire.  It's a kind of a medium-sized theater in fairly central London, but tickets were so popular, we did three nights, so that was with the original members of the band a- and supplemented with some other players as well, wonderful players.  Darian Sahanaja from the Brian Wilson band played second keyboards, and, and some of the guys from the current incarnation of the Zombies helped out with backing vocals and so forth, so we did three nights at Hammersmith Odeon, and then the next year, we, we then- we went 'round the country and played quite a few of the, the big dates 'round the country, and then we came to America, and so we, we've done that quite a few times, but I don't think we will probably- I don't think there are any plans to do it again.  We, we s- we did it again for the fiftieth anniversary,

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  which was, um, 2018, and we played a lot of dates, um, and the last time we did it, we actually toured with Brian Wilson, and we played Odessey and Oracle in the first half in its entirety, but I, I think probably that's it now.  It was great to play with, with Chris and Hugh again after all these years.

Pat:  What do you have, uh, lined up for this big concert that's coming up, uh, the, uh, Abbey Road taping?

Colin:  We're gonna play five new songs, and, and otherwise, you know, we're, we're gonna play a selection of songs that we've recorded more recently and of course the standard songs that, that people want to hear, so I think it'll be a really exciting concert.  I, I think it should be fantastic.

Pat:  There's so many bands these days that had such a short burst at first, then a long dormancy, and then their second act together.  I mean, you've been playing Zombies songs again for more time than the Zombies existed in the first place, like four, four times as much!

Colin:  I know.  I know.  It's, it's strange, isn't it?  I don't pretend to understand it, and in regard to the Zombies, I mean, I- oth- other bands will have their own story, but with the Zombies, so much of it's been left to chance, you know.  How I got in the band in the first place.  If I hadn't been sitting in alphabetical order, I wouldn't have probably got in the band in the first place, you know.

Pat:  Right, right.

Colin:  Um, and it, it's, it's just been a, a series of coincidences and chances all the way along, but then you have to make the most of your opportunities.  That's the thing.  You, you have to do that, and the other thing is:  you need stamina.  I think it's really important.  There are so many wonderful musicians who just get beaten down by the business, and you know, you have to be sensitive enough to write songs and perform songs, but you've gotta have a, an inner strength as well.  It's not always easy to tell who's gonna be strong and who's not, but you, you do need that.

---

Pat:  You do need that inner strength, and Colin Blunstone and the Zombies certainly seem to have that.  Remember to check out veeps.com on Saturday, September 18th for the Zombies' livestream from Abbey Road.  Also check out thezombies.veeps.com for more info and offers.  Times will vary according to where you are because it's a livestream, so in Britain where Abbey Road is, that means 8pm on September 18th, which means 3pm on the east coast of the U.S., noon on the west coast of the U.S., and since we do have some listenership in Australia - mostly in New South Wales - that will be Sunday, September 19th at 5am.  Also keep on eye out for tour dates to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of Colin Blunstone's One Year album.  You know what else to keep an eye out for?  Berklee Online discounts.  That's right.  You can save $100 off your first course with us by going to musicismylifepod.com.  All the info you need is right there.  Check it out.  This episode**** was edited by Talia Smith, mastered by Jose David Vindas Mora.  All visual assets coordinated by Mike DeBenedictis.  Social media by Brooke Larson.  Web assistance courtesy of Mark Thomas, Dee Zimmerman, and Joe McDenna.  Thanks to our video team who posts these episodes on YouTube two weeks after they premiere on podcast services, and speaking of YouTube, you'll definitely want to subscribe to the Berklee Online YouTube channel because if you do, you'll be the first to know about our upcoming video interview series 4/4.  The first episode premieres soon with Lou Barlow.  Really excited 'bout this.  And while I'm talking about subscribing and the like, please leave a review for the Music Is My Life podcast on iTunes.  We're seeing lots of listenership, but we could see even more with a little help from you, my friends, when you leave a positive review.  OK, back to the credits:  I wrote and recorded the Music Is My Life theme song, but the expert remixing comes courtesy of Lilly Dickinson.  Special thanks to Gabriel Ryfer Cohen, Greg Faucher, and you, our listeners.  So stay inspired.  Thanks for listening.  We'll talk soon.

---

*"You Make Me Feel Good" was the B-side to "She's Not There" in both the U.S. and U.K.  Colin seems to me thinking of "Leave Me Be," which was the Zombies' second U.K. single but wasn't released in the U.S.

**According to the chronology in the Zombie Heaven liner notes, the last track recorded for Odessey and Oracle was "Changes" (on 7 November).  There's no specific date given for "Time of the Season," just "August," although this photo set from the session gives the date as "September."

***According to AllMusic, Five Leaves Left, Drake's first album, was released 1 September 1969, and according to Russo's Collector's Guide, One Year was released in the U.K. on 5 November 1971.

****Via internet searches, I was able to verify the correct spellings of the names of most of the people listed in the credits, but there were a few I couldn't find.

[Last updated 10 October 2026]

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Rock Solid

[The audio for this podcast is a bit odd in that the volume levels of the microphones vary, so if someone is interrupted or multiple people are talking over each other, it's difficult to make out some words.  My transcription has more "[indistinct]"s than I'd like, but I did my best.  I also tried following different punctuation conventions for the American host and the British band members, but this probably ended up being more confusing than anything else.]

Pat:  Hey, everybody, welcome to Rock Solid, the comedy podcast for all things music, both new and classic.  I'm Pat Francis, and joining me today- I have a full house today, although I don't have a producer.  I don't have a co-host, but I do have three of the original members from the legendary, British Invasion band the Zombies, so let's go around the table and first let's hear, uh, just so you know, who, uh, you're listening to.  Colin Blunstone.  Colin?

Colin:  Hi, this is Colin Blunstone.  I'm the lead singer with the Zombies.

Rod:  Uh, Colin's on the blue mic.  I'm on the black mic, and my name's Rod Argent.  I'm the keyboard player and singer.

Hugh:  And last but not least is myself on the red mic, and I am happily to be the drummer.

Pat:  Well, thanks, guys.  Uh, Colin, Rod, and Hugh.  This is amazing, you guys.  To have you guys, uh, here in the studio is, uh, it's a big thrill for me because, um, Odessey and Oracle- I'm one of the late to the party Odessey and Oracle people, and ever since I found this album, when I would ask people about it, everyone who knows the album says, "That's one of my top five favorite albums of all time," and everyone that I've introduced to it says, "How have I never heard this album before?"  So, that's the great thing about music:  it's here forever, and I'm so bummed that I haven't been able to listen to this for the last fifty years, but hopefully, I'll listen to it for the next fifty.

Hugh:  What we like-

Colin:  Yes.

Hugh:  What we like about it, really, is that, uh, you're one of many.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Hugh:  And, uh, thanks to the guys, these guys' hard work over the years, coming over here and playing it, um, tr- tracks from it, um, it, it, it's made [it] the success it is now.

Pat:  Yeah, it, and, and I was at the show, um, the other night, and you guys nailed it.  The audience was- and the audience was- it was all ages.  There were-

Rod:  That's a great thing.  I mean it, it really- the, the thing that, that flatters me, flatters us

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  and, and sort of moves us the most is the, is the fact that the album seems to be able to relate to people of all different generations, and I, I still can't get my head around that.  There was a, there was a, a moment a couple of years ago in the Philippines when- because we were huge in the Philippines in the, in the late sixties.  And, um, a grandmother now, who was at the original concert had come along, and she must have known somebody because she came backstage, and she'd dragged her granddaughter, and the granddaughter came up to me and said, 'D'you know, I came here tonight kicking and screaming; I did not wanna come.'  She said, 'But you sang' - you know, 'you' meaning the band

Pat:  The band.

Rod:  uh - 'sang a song tonight.  On- one of the songs you sang tonight was called "A Rose for Emily."'  She said, 'And I was in tears in the middle of it.'  And I thought, 'Well, if we can move a, a nineteen-year-old girl

Pat:  Yeah

Rod: to tears that has never heard the record, even, and, and she's responding to the, the song, and, and how we're doing it, then we must have been doing something right.'

Pat:  Well, I've been playing the album now... non-stop, constantly, and, uh, I have a sixteen-year-old daughter.  I have a twelve-year-old daughter, too, but my sixteen-year-old daughter gave you guys the highest compliment; she said, uh, "This isn't as bad as the other stuff you play."

Colin:  Makes it all worth while when you-

Hugh:  Makes it all worth while.

Rod:  That's the best, that's the best compliment we've ever had [indistinct "actually"?]

Colin:  I know.  When you get a compliment like that...

Pat:  And she, uh, and then her and my wife listen to this podcast called S Town, and "Rose for Emily" is

Rod:  'Rose for Emily' [indistinct]

Pat:  Yes, and it- they were listening to, uh, it the other day, and at the end, my daughter said, "Oh, this is that Zombies song," and my wife was like, "How, how do you know that- how do you know this song?"  She's like, "'Cause this is dad's music."  So any- back to the show the other night.  First of all:  phenomenal.  You guys- there's a sincerity that comes from the three of you onstage that it, it's not- you can't fake it.  I've been to many shows where the stage patter is, you know, you're like, "Oh, these guys- this is- they're- they don't even know where they're at," but you guys are totally locked into this crowd, and it is- it was moving.  It was joyful.  Uh, you guys got a legitimate standing ovation that night, and, uh, I was really- I was happy to be in the audience, but I was happy for you guys, uh, performing up there.  It, it- and that must feel amazing.  Colin?

Colin:  It, it really does feel amazing.  I mean, uh, we've had an incredible reaction to this whole tour.  We've been here now nearly three months, and every night we've played - every night - there's a standing ovation at the end, and often there's a standing ovation after each track, which means that it takes quite a long time to play the, the whole album, but the reaction has been fantastic, and, and our feelings about playing on stage as, as you just said:  we genuinely love playing live, and hopefully that does come across.  You know, we're not just going through the motions.  We don't take any prisoners when we're on stage.  We're giving it all we've got every night.

Pat:  If I didn't feel this way, I wouldn't say it.  I would move on to other things, so I'm being sincere with you guys also.

Rod:  Well, Hugh, Hugh said a few minutes ago about Colin and I having come over quite a lot

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  in the [last? past?] few years, and that happened completely by accident, and it was a very natural thing.  And the, the whole thing is:  we're honestly not doing this because we think we've gotta try and make a bit of money, we've gotta try and make a bit of, uh, got- we've gotta try and make a buck by, um, going over, raking over the old embers.  We, we've never thought like that.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  We're doing it because it felt like a buzz to be able to do these things again and to do new music within the context of, of the- because that's very important to us as well.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  So in a sense, we're not- I'm not tryin' to be, you know, righteous about it, but we are doing it for the right reasons.  We wanna make as much money as possible; that's fantastic but as a side issue to actually trying to get to the end of whatever we're doing and thinking, 'That is absolutely the best that we can do.  We're still excited about creating new music, about rediscovering some of the old Zombies tracks that we never played live first time round as well.'  I mean

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  that's, that's been a revelation, too.  Um, and so we're genuinely doing it in the same way that we were doing it when we were eighteen.  It's the same spirit, and it's absolutely, um - I think - the only way to do something.

Hugh:  Additionally, it's also worth pointing out that, uh, we were friends back in the sixties, and that has lasted throughout the decades, and we are still friends now, and that shows on stage, I think, as well.

Rod:  You, b------.  That's not....

Hugh:  Wait till I get you outside.

Pat:  Let's go- I'm gonna go way back to 1964, the year of my birth, and I don't know how old you guys were at this time.  This is the first single?  "She's Not There"?

Colin:  That's right.

Rod:  'She's Not There' was, yeah.

Pat:  Written by Rod.  This, uh, [was] number twelve in the U.K., number two in the U.S.

Rod:  Number one in Cashbox, which,

Hugh:  Mm, number one.

Rod:  uh, very, very interesting that, that the Beatles on the, the Ron Howard film

Pat:  Who was that band you mentioned?

Rod:  The Beatles.  You remember the Beatles?

Pat:  Not quite sure if I know who they are.

Rod:  Oh, no.  It's not a

Hugh:  Had a few hits.

Rod:  It's, it's a play on words:  beat, Beatles.

Pat:  Beat, yes.

Rod:  Um, but, um, on the Rod Howard film [The Beatles: Eight Days A Week - The Touring Years (2016)], uh, when they got their first number one in the States, they showed the Cashbox chart because Cashbox and Billboard were absolutely equivalent.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  And we were lucky enough to make, uh, number one with, uh, 'She's Not There,' uh, it even made the nine o'clock news back in the U.K.

Pat:  Mm.

Rod:  'cause I remember phoning home that night.  Um, and also 'Time of the Season' made number one in Cashbox.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  But in Billboard, it was two and, and three, you know.  We didn't quite make the top spot in Billboard.

Pat:  Oh well.

Hugh:  So we still call it number one.

Rod:  Yeah, we do.

Pat:  Sure.  I would.  Well, this is "She's Not There."  Let's hear a little bit of it.

['She's Not There' starts playing]

Pat:  Such a cool bass line.

['She's Not There' fades out shortly before the end of the first chorus]

Pat:  So good, never gets old.

Rod:  Oh, thank you.

Pat:  Does it- I, I, I assume it doesn't get old to play it either.

Rod:  And it doesn't, uh

Hugh:  Quite right.

Rod:  it's always a joy to play it.  And I'm so pleased that you played the mono version because, uh, we only had four tracks to record in those days

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  and on the mono version, um, a little drum flan was added, which I think makes a, a big difference

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  to the, the hipness of the track.  But that only exists on the mono version.

Hugh: Correct.  And I've often get asked, uh, 'Hugh, how do you play that?' so I have to slow it right down and show a few people.  'It's like this.'

Colin:  You know when it, when that, the prospects of recording came up, uh, uh, we got offered some time - uh, a contract and some time in Decca studios, and we had a producer called Ken Jones, and he said to us, uh, 'You know,' and, and just in the middle of a long conversation, he said, 'We got a session coming up in two weeks' time; you could always write something for this session,' and then he went on and talked about other things.  And Rod - I, I completely forgot that he said that - but Rod went away and wrote 'She's Not There' and came back about two or three days later and said, 'Look, I've written this song,' and I was absolutely amazed.  I had no idea he could write songs.  And he played us that, and we knew it was a special song right from the beginning, so if he hadn't written a song, we would have done some R&B, R&B classics

Pat:  Yes.

Colin:  at the first session.

Pat:  Which is what the, the- everyone did, the Stones, the Beatles.  That's what everyone was doing.

Colin:  [Indistinct] That's what we were doing.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  You know, and, and, but then out of the blue, he wrote this song, and I think we recorded four or five tracks in that, that first evening in, uh, Decca studios.

Pat:  And all this time, still, it, it, it, it still resonates.  People still love this tune.

Rod:  D'you, I think what....  I think one of the reasons why maybe our stuff hasn't dated as much as some of the

Pat:  Mmhm

Rod:  contemporary, uh, stuff that was around, um, is - again, coming back to this point of doing things for the right reasons - 'cause we never tried to copy what was going on, you know?  Record companies were always saying to you, 'Oh, why don't you do something like this?' you know, which was yesterday's hit

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  or, or whatever.  And, uh, we always just got excited about a musical idea, got 'round a piano, usually in my mum's house

Hugh:  Yes.

Rod:  My dear old mum

Hugh:  Oh, yeah [indistinct]

Rod:  Who passed away at a hundred just a few weeks ago

Hugh:  [indistinct] mm.

Rod:  Um, and, uh, we'd work something out and get excited by it, and at- the actual format of the composition of, of 'She's Not There' is very odd.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  It, it's not, it's not a couple of verses, middle eight, and- it's, it's one verse, a bridge leading to a climax, which goes to a major key and then dow- back down to the minor again.  But we didn't think about that; we just made something that worked for us.  [We] worked on the harmonies.  I loved Colin's voice, so I wanted it to do something that ended with him just on a high A, you know, so, we put in all these things.  The very first thing I wrote in the song was the bass line.  You mentioned the bass line.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  The bass and drum part was integral to the way the thing was put together, so it wasn't quite like some of the way some of the other songs were being put together, but it was from the heart, and that's the way we still write now.

Pat:  It almost has like the cool, jazzy feel to it.  It's just so...

Rod:  It has that in it.

Pat:  Nothing like it.

Rod:  And, and I think one of the reasons is that- we never thought of it having any jazz content at all, but, um, I- as well as being in love with, you know, as a wri- writer, as well as being in love with the early Elvis, with, uh, 'Mystery Train' and 'Hound Dog' and 'That's Alright Mama' and all those sort of things, um, and Little Richard and all the great rock things, at the same time, I was totally knocked out with the Miles Davis band

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  of around 1958, '59, '60, and I listened to much of it that I think some of that- I, I just thought of us, I thought of us doing the Bea- you know, being the Beatles

Hugh:  Yeah.

Rod:  going in there and being the Beatles.

Hugh:  [indistinct]

Rod:  But actually, when it went through the filter of our separate consciousnesses, it came out with all these sort of indirect influences which form part of the, the soup, if you like, you know, that, that made the meal, and, and, and, and it turned out to be something quite original, and I think for that reason,  um, maybe it still relates to people now because we weren't just trying to get on the coattails of the fashion

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  of what was going on.

Pat:  And let's mention the other, the other players on that song are Chris White

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  and, uh, Paul At- Atkinson.

Rod:  Chris White, it- has this bass sound, which, it's very interesting when we play on stage

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  because, you know, Colin and I have got a, what, what we call the current incarnation, aside from this tour.

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  Um, that did the first half.  Uh, and we've got a great bass player in Jim, Jim Rodford, but it sounds- Chris's has his own

Hugh:  His own style

Rod:  character.

Hugh:  character.  [indistinct]

Pat:  And, you know, I did notice that 'cause in the second set, Jim, uh, he, he does background vocals.

Rod:  Yes, yeah.

Pat:  And, um, and I've loved Jim for, for, I loved the, all the Kinks albums he plays on.

Rod:  Exactly, yeah.  

Pat:  He, he-

Rod:  Come Dancing.

Pat:  Yeah, and he-  But yeah, when Chris came out and started to play, I was like, "Oh, now this is a different thing here."

Rod:  It's a different sound.

Pat:  Yeah.

[overlapping]

Rod:  And the character of Hugh's drumming is [indistinct]

Hugh:  [indistinct] and the character of myself with Chris, um, makes us the best rhythm section in the world, really.

[laughter]

Pat:  Well, who's gonna ar- no one in this room's gonna argue!

Hugh:  Thank you.

Pat:  Now, I, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump around a little bit 'cause I wanna jump to the song that you guys opened the show with the other night, and I wanna talk about Colin's voice.  You guys opened with "I Love You."

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  Written by Chris White.

Rod:  Mmhm.

Pat:  It's actually a- this was actually a B-side!?

Rod:  It was a B-side to 'Whenever You're Ready' [indistinct]

Pat:  "Whenever You're Ready"

Colin:  I think it was, yeah, but then it was covered by a band called People, and it was actually a top three single in the States, um, but it originally, obviously

Rod:  Canadian band, I think.

Colin:  I think they were Canadian, yeah.  Uh, it, it, originally, it was written by Chris White, and it's a, it's a Zombies tune, so we, we feel, uh, that we're within our rights to put it

Pat:  To play it.

Colin:  In our show, yeah.

Pat:  Well, look, this is a very ballsy song to open with as a singer because holy-

Colin:  It certainly is.

Rod:  I had to persuade him of it many times!

Colin:  I know.  There's a top B in that, and I said to Rod, you know, 'Couldn't we just play this the

Rod:  Work up to it.

Hugh:  Work up to it.

Colin:  fourth or fifth?  And we, we, we gotta open with this song?' you know?

Pat:  Well, let's-

Rod:  And then I said, 'Yes.'

Pat:  Let's hear the studio version, and then you'll, you'll realize what I'm talking about playing this live.

[Clip of 'I Love You,' faded out during 'I should tell you just how I feel...' at ~0:40]

Pat:  Now, you, you're doing a little, um, uh, air bass as that's playing.

Hugh:  I was, just to emphasize the point that you made, Rod, about Chris and his bass playing, um, and when you listen to it again like we are right now

Rod:  It's very distinctive, isn't it?

Pat:  Yeah.

Hugh:  Very distinct.

Rod:  Yeah.

Hugh:  And very perfect, so, uh.

Pat:  You guys are gonna wanna go home and pull out all your old records and put headphones on and listen to them.

Hugh:  Yep.  So right.

Pat:  Uh, now that's... amazing the other night when you guys opened with this, very cruel trick to play on your long-time mate Colin.

Rod:  I'm only being true to our origins because 'She's Not There' was a[n] absolute swine to go into a radio, um, at nine o'clock in the morning

Pat: Mmhm

Rod:  and have to sing, 'Let me tell you 'bout the way she...' you know.

Colin:  And I mean, the thing is that all the songs we play are in the original keys, you know?

Pat:  Yes.

Colin:  But a lot of people, they bring the songs down as they get older, but we play them all in the original keys, so some of them, you know, you certainly gotta focus to get those top notes.

Rod:  We, we played, we played one, uh, we played two new songs, um, that you might- must have heard, in the first half.

Pat:  Yeah, you played 'em, uh, from Still Got the Hunger [sic].

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  And, and there was a song called 'Edge of the Rainbow,' and I thought I'd have some fun on that because I wanted to [hits microphone?] whoops.  I wanted to write, um, something that had the structure of an old Ray Charles song.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  You know, which is what I did and en- really enjoyed doing it, and, and then Colin came round, and we had the voice and piano rehearsal, and I deliberately at the very end of it put, uh, a, a, a note that was, uh, one note higher than "She's Not There" at the very end, 'cause I knew he'd enjoy it, you know?  And, uh, so, so, so, so we're still doing that.  We're still doing that.

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  Now, now, I wanna ask you:  as, as the leader singer who has to hit these notes and sing these songs, do you- what do you do to keep your voice, uh, in check?

Colin:  I tell you the thing that I avoid is after show,

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  uh, you know, people come 'round, and it can get very, very loud.  Um, maybe there's music playing, and people's voices get louder and louder, and that can be quite dangerous 'cause you find you can lose your voice after [indistinct]

Pat:  Just tryin' to keep up with the conversation.

Colin:  So often, I'll say hello to everyone, and then I'll go.

Rod:  We found, I mean I found this after the L.A., the L.A. gig that you're talking about.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  Um, we went to- you know, obviously loads and loads of people, including Geoff Emerick, the original, uh,

Colin:  Engineer.

Rod:  Engineer on-

Pat:  Including me.  I was back there.

Rod:  Yeah.  Absolutely.  But, but with, with 'Time of the Season,' you know, so there are a lot of people we had to meet, and

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  And it gets louder and louder and louder, and you don't realise it, but you're shouting, and you're shouting for about an hour.  And the next morning-  I mean Colin went before me

Colin:  I, I was the first.

Rod:  I was tryin' to go, but I, I couldn't get out the door, and, uh, next morning, I woke up, you know, [drops tone of voice] my voice was really relaxed, you know?

Pat:  And, and, and, Rod, you were even in the, in the, in the side room, so you weren't in with all the people.  People had to look for you.

Rod:  Right, right.

Colin:  I know, but I wa-, I was the first to leave.

Pat:  Yes, you, yes.

Colin:  And that's, that's for that reason, but the main thing I do, uh, two or three things.  One is, you know, we used to go to lots of parties, and there's a big social side, when we were nineteen and twenty.

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  Well, that, I don't do any of that, you know?  After the show, I get to the hotel as early as I can.

Rod:  I think you have to pace yourselves, don't you?

Colin:  You, you know, as you get older, you do have to pace yourself, but the main thing is:  both Rod and I started with a singing coach probably about twelve or fifteen years ago now, called Ian Adam, and he taught us a little bit about singing technique, how to protect your voice, and also he gave us a series of singing exercises, and I do those exercises before soundcheck and then again before the show, so before the show, I've- I've done the exercises for half an hour before soundcheck.  Soundcheck could be half an hour, exercises before the show

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  half an hour, so I might have sung for an hour and a half before the show, and that helps me

Pat:  Well

Colin:  get the top note in 'I Love You.'

Pat:  That is- well, that is definitely, uh, see, when I go to a concert, uh, if the drummer makes a mistake or the keyboard player, the bass player, I, I don't know 'cause I don't play an instrument, but if the singer isn't on point

Rod:  You can tell.

Pat:  you can tell.

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  You know, and, um

Colin:  Well, some singers amaze me

Hugh:  [indistinct, "And good for that"?]

Colin:  and I've heard singers say, they'll say, um, 'You know, by the, by the fourth or fifth song, my voice was really warmed up, and I thought I was really, you know, singing well.'  I thought, 'Well, why don't you warm your voice up before you start?'

Pat:  Before you start.

Colin:  'And then you'll be singing well from the first [indistinct].'

Pat:  From the jump, right.

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  That would make sense.

Colin:  It would make, yeah, absolutely.

Pat:  I'm gonna jump back now to December '64.  This went to number six in the U.S.  Let's hear a little bit of "Tell Her No."

[Clip of 'Tell Her No,' faded shortly after 'Don't hurt me now for her love belongs to me' at ~0:36]

Pat:  So gorgeous, just unbelievable.  Um, now, Hugh, you were talkin' about you guys were still friends, and when I was doing my research and I was, uh, investigating some of Colin's solo albums, that's when I noticed that even though the Zombies were not active, uh, you guys were, like, involved with each others' projects.

Colin:  That's right.

Rod:  Well, we were because the thing is that, um, we really broke up for commercial reasons.  Chris and I, as writers,

Pat:  Mm.

Rod:  actually always had a good income because later on we found there was never a time when we didn't have a hit record somewhere in the world, but in those days, you didn't know about it.  I mean, nowadays, you know, you can have, um, a hit in, uh, Guatemala, and, and you'll know within an hour.

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  You know, but in those days, it took months and months for anything to filter back.  We were very much- people didn't travel as much.  We were very much based in the U.K., so Chris and I were having, who ha- we had very honest publishers, and we had a lot of income coming through to us.  The other guys didn't have a penny, really, and it, the, the, the catalyst as I remember it was Paul Atkinson saying, 'Look guys, I've, I've, I'm getting married, and I haven't got any money.'

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  You know.  'I've gotta move on.'  And, and that was the catalyst that started breaking the band up.

Colin:  We should sort of say that, uh, this happened because the people who were looking after us with regard to live

Rod:  Yeah.

Colin:  playing were not the best people to get involved with.

Pat:  So you, you weren't making- the, the people that weren't contributing as much, uh, in the writing aspect were also not making- you guys weren't making a lot of money for the live gigs.

Rod:  We made nothing.  We made nothing.

Colin:  No.

Pat:  OK.

Colin:  We made nothing.

Rod:  Out of live.

Colin:  I mean, it wasn't that we couldn't buy a third car or a, or a

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  a seventh house.  We couldn't eat.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  That's the trouble.

Pat:  And that's no good.

Colin:  No.

Rod:  And we later found out, uh, Chris only a few years ago met one of the guys that worked within a particular management company, and, and Chris said, 'I can never forgive X for

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  ripping us off so, for so much,' and he said, 'Well, we always said that if we hadn't've done it, somebody else would have done,' and he admitted to Chris that in the sixties, we were ripped off to the tune of two million pounds.  Now, can you imagine how much money that is if that was that in the sixties?

Pat:  This is this- this story is- this story never ends.  Everyone has this- everyone has this story.  It's so-

Rod:  You're right, Pat.

Hugh:  Yep.

Pat:  It's so awful that you guys-

Hugh:  It happened so often in the sixties.

Colin:  Exactly, it certainly happened in the sixties.  I wonder how much it happens now with young bands.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still happening now, but it, it certainly was very prevalent in the sixties, and it was- it helped- in a way it helped me to think it wasn't just us.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  But we weren't just being naïve because when we started, we were very aware of the fact that this could happen

Colin:  Mm.

Rod:  and we tried to protect ourselves

Hugh:  We did.  We did.

Rod:  but we were eighteen years old.

Pat:  Yeah, you don't know anything when you're eighteen.

Colin:  And d'you know, the bas- the basic rip-off that was happening is so simple:  they were double selling us so that when we did a concert- it's really, really simple.  He sold us for, you know, a, a thousand pounds, for instance; I'll just use that figure.

Pat:  OK.

Colin:  A thousand pounds to the promoter, but he told us he only got two hundred pounds.

Rod:  Because his wife had the agency, which is against the law now, but so he, and, you know, we were actually being paid a hundred pounds, but the agency were getting a thousand or, or whatever it was.

Hugh:  Yeah.

Pat:  Here's what bothers me:  instead of, instead of coming up with these ways to cheat your client

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  why don't you come up with ways to help them profit, and then, and you'll profit more also?

[All talking at once]

Rod:  Then everybody profits [indistinct]

Hugh:  And everybody [indistinct]

Pat:  Then everybody profits.

Colin:  This is the irony of it:  if he'd've, if he'd've been honest with us and stuck with us, he would have made far more money.

Rod:  He lost so much money, los- lost so many artists, didn't he?

Colin:  I know. So, yeah, I mean, he lost the Searchers, Dusty Springfield.  He had Cliff Richard

Rod:  Yeah.

Colin:  who was a big artist

Pat:  Oh, yeah.

Colin:  in the U.K.  Um, lo- you know, he had all these pictures on the wall, and I always remember John McNally from the Searchers saying, 'The question you should have asked when you met Tito is, "Why don't you still represent

Rod:  Yeah.

Colin:  all those people

Pat:  Right.

Colin:  that, that- whose pictures you've got on the wall?"' which is a, is a very good question.

Pat:  That's very telling. It's very telling.

Rod:  Yeah.

Hugh:  Very telling.

Colin:  Yeah.  So if he'd've stayed with us, he, h-, uh, he would have made far more money, and he would have had far more credibility in the business.  He ended up a, a broken old, you know, an old man and a, and a bit of a joke, you know, with no prestige, and everyone knew, um, how he conducted his business.

Pat:  And you guys are still on the road and

Rod:  Yep.

Pat:  uh, and on Conan O'Brien last night

Rod:  Yeah!

Pat:  and Los Angeles and on tour, so I guess karma comes around a little bit.  Now, as far as the publishing, Rod, so when Santana records "She's Not There," you're, you're fine with that.

Rod:  D'you know what?  The thing is, and again, uh, you know, I, I don't wanna saintly all the time.  Of, of course, I thought, 'Fantastic, it's gonna make loads of money; that's great,' but what really knocked me out was that I, I haven't had that many covers of my songs -  I mean, I've had some - but that was the first cover that I've had that I've- no, it was the second cover I've had actually which I thought was brilliant.  Um, and, uh, when I heard it, I thought, 'This is a band that are one of my favorite bands of all time, and they'd been going through a fallow period where they'd had no hits for a while

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  and "She's Not There" was the song that brought them back, really, into the American charts,' and it knocked me out so much because A) I thought the, the version was terrific B) I thought there was always an inherent Latin feeling in the writing of the song, and of course, they brought that out.

Pat:  Yeah, they upped the Latin feel for that

Rod:  Totally.

Pat:  song, for sure.

Rod:  And, and they brought out the, the, the slight - I'm not pretending it's a blue song - but they brought out the blues element in the, in the way the melody is constructed as well, and I just loved their take on it because it wasn't a copy.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  It was their own thing.  Bill Graham suggested to Carlos Santana that that, um, that, that, that they should do that song.

Pat:  'Cause he was, he was Carlos's manager.

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  Pro- he was probably maybe one of the good managers.

Rod:  I think he was a, a, a great manager.

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  And, and he had his heart in the music as well.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  He really, really did.  Um, so I absolutely loved that.  The other si- uh, cover before that that I loved, um, the only song I ever wrote for somebody else specifically was for Dusty Springfield, and on her album Ev'rything's Coming up Dusty, the first song is called 'If It Don't Work Out,' and that was written over a weekend when we were on tour with Dusty, and she loved that, and I loved how she did it, and, and I was very proud of that one.

Pat:  Such a great singer.

Hugh:  What's not to love about Dusty?

Rod:  Ah!

Pat:  I know, really.  OK, well, I could play- I could keep playing singles, but I feel like we should talk about Odessey and Oracle since that's the, that's what the tour is, you know, that's the lynch pin of this whole thing.  That's why Hugh's back on the road.

Hugh:  Absolutely, and a deep joy it is, too, I have to say.  Um, Chris and I are having the time of our lives doing it.  It seems to be even more magnificant than the tour in 2015.  We're going to more lovely places, bigger theaters, and it's just a huge amount of fun to be playing again together with the guys.

Pat:  I was, uh, a little bit of a fly on the wall the other night, Hugh, because you were talking with another drummer, and you guys were talkin' shop, and it was kinda cool just to listen in to you guys.

Hugh:  Oh, yeah, you get me near another drummer, and, uh, I, I'm a-, I'm away, and lu-, and luckily on that evening, I had the pleasure of talking to chief exec of Yamaha, and once I'd realized that, you couldn't stop me talking him about A) the drums of, of theirs that I was playing and special little pedal that I've got, that I invented myself, and uh, it was just, you know, I was in, um, heaven just then.

Pat:  Now what's special about that pedal?

Hugh:  OK, well, it, I mean, just very briefly, I like the idea of symmetrical sitting at the drums, and it meant that I wanted to have my right foot a little further out to the right than the bass drum

Pat:  OK.

Hugh:  which would be straight ahead, so I thought, 'How could I do that?' and I found a single Yamaha pedal, and I found a double left-hand player's drummer- uh, drummer's pedal, took the, the satellite pedal, if you like, cut the rod down, put them together, and I've got what I wanted.

Pat:  Sometimes you have to come up with it yourself.

Hugh:  Well, you do.  You do, absolutely.  Uh, I'm, I'm quite inventive when it comes to things like that, bit of an engineer.  I've inherited that from my father, who used to work for a[n] aircraft company.

Rod:  You made, you made a table that I think we've still got.  It- way back when you were about eighteen years old.

Hugh:  Oh, G--, yes, I think you're right.  Yeah, yeah, I got into that.

Rod:  Yeah.

Hugh:  Woodwork.

Rod:  Yeah, yeah.

Pat:  Alright, let's get into Odessey and Oracle.  Also, I- this is a question I know you guys have been- you guys are asked this constantly, but the name The Zombies.  For example, when someone says, "Black Sabbath," and then I hear the music, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly what Black Sabbath sounds like, like that music," but "The Zombies," and again, when you guys came up with this name- [in] 2017, you hear the name- you hear the word "zombie" every single day and not necessarily in relationship to your band; it's just, it's in our consciousness now.  We just say, "Zombie apocalypse" or the zombie movies and TV shows.  How did you guys grab this word?

Colin:  Well, I, you know, I sometimes say it's out of desperation because, um, we'd been a co- we'd come up with a couple of names before.  It was very, very early days, and, um, you know, the band had only just formed, and, and one of the first things a band wants to do is to have a name!

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  And to tell you the honest truth, we tried the Mustangs for a very short period of time, and [for] an even shorter period of time, we tried the Sundowners, and then, as far as we can remember between us, it was our original bass player called Paul Arnold, uh, who came up with the idea of 'The Zombies,' and I've gotta be honest:  I didn't really know what a zombie was.

Rod:  He hated it

Colin:  And I didn't re-

Rod:  I lo- I loved it.

Pat:  You love it?

Rod:  [indistinct] I have to say.

Colin:  I didn't particularly like the name either, but

Pat:  Well, then you- when you, when you found out what a zombie was, that might not have helped very much.

Colin:  Probably not, no, but I mean by then, you see, what- the one thing that name is, is it's very catchy.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Colin:  And it, and it just caught on, and so without- we didn't question too much what it meant.  We just wanted a catchy name that no one else was using, and, and that's really why we accepted that name.

[speaking simultaneously]

Hugh:  [indistinct]

Rod:  Let me, let me take you back to the Beatles.  [To Hugh] Sorry.

Hugh:  Sorry.

Rod:  Um, again, because when you- my immediate thought when I heard, 'The Zombies,' I thought, 'That's great' because A) no- nobody will have it.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  B) it's got a vague, um, sort of, uh, exoticism to it, and- because I knew that zombies were something to do with Haiti and, uh, slaves being used, you know, risen from the dead and being used by, uh, sorcery, you know.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  I knew that, but in the vaguest possible terms, I knew that, and so I, I thought, 'Yeah, it's, it's fairly exotic,' and if you go back to the Beatles, nobody thinks - that I know, anyway - thinks about either a play on words, you know, beat, The Beatles or little insects going around; they think of John, Paul, George, and Ringo.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  And I thought, 'If we're lucky enough to do anything good, then people will just, um, associate the name with the five of us.'

Hugh:  Exactly.

Rod:  'And, and no one else will have it.'  I have to take you to our first TV.  We did a, a Ready Steady Go*, and Manfred Mann were on, and I think they were doing '5, 4, 3, 2, 1,' um, and I was wandering 'round the studio before we were due to go on, and - I've already told you about my love of Miles Davis - and I heard Miles Davis playing from this dressing room, and I knocked on the door and went in, and it was Manfred sittin' there, and I said, 'Is that Miles?' and he said, 'Yeah, he's under the table,' you know, being, being funny.  Um, and I said, 'Oh, G--, I, I love this, this track' - I think it was Milestones he was playing - and, uh, and he said, 'You're Rod Argent, aren't you?' and I said, 'Yeah!'  I thought- very flattered that he knew who I was, you know, and he said, 'Oh, man.'  He said, 'I love your record.' he said, 'but you have to change that name.'

Hugh:  And now, of course, that- I think that word, uh, as Rod quite rightly says, [has] become synonymous with the group itself; it doesn't mean what it means, like 'The Beatles' doesn't mean what it means.

Pat:  Right.

Hugh:  But you think of the Beatles, you think of the, the four guys.  You say, 'The Zombies,' you think of us.

Pat:  Yes, absolutely do.  I don't know many artists with a Z.  I mean, Zappa.  Zombies and Zappa.  I don't know, I don't know anyone else.

Rod:  ZZ Top.

Hugh:  That's very handy.

Pat:  Yeah.  ZZ Top, of course, yes.

Hugh:  ZZ Top.

[talking simultaneously]

Hugh:  [indistinct] talk about ZZ Top.

Rod:  Do you know about....  Yeah.  D- d'you wanna tell him the story about that?

Hugh:  Uh, no, you, you go ahead.  You're-

Rod:  Well, the, the, the- we found out just about a year ago or maybe two years ago that, um, when 'Time of the Season' came out, um, obviously, we'd broken up by then, so we weren't around.

Pat:  Which is very strange.

Rod:  I know, but I mean-

Pat:  When you hear that now.

Rod:  Well, I know, but the thing is it was eighteen months after the record was [indistinct] anyway.

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  Um, and so there was some fake Zombies going around, and we learned because, um, Frank Beard and Dusty from, uh, ZZ Top had actually admitted in an article that they were one of the fake Zombies groups.

Pat:  So-

Rod:  Before they were ZZ Top!

Pat:  So anyone would just grab hold of that Zombies name and go out and play the songs and-

Rod:  Well, they did.

Colin:  Yeah, because the-

Pat:  They did.

Hugh:  They did, yeah.

Colin:  They did because there was no band 'cause we were all, all off doing other things, so there were many fake Zombie bands.  It wasn't just one, and more recently, it happened.  There was a British band [that] came over here, and they were pretending to be the Zombies, and they weren't very good, and we were trying to-

Pat:  Which hurts the name Zombies.

Colin:  Even more, yeah!

Rod:  Yeah.

Hugh:  Exactly.

Colin:  So we were trying to discourage them, and in my innocence, I thought- I'd written a couple of letters** to people and said, you- trying to discourage them, and I thought maybe it had worked 'cause they suddenly, they stopped, and then we were told this story that there was a fan in the audience watching this not-very-good Zombies band who went backstage and pulled a gun on them.

Pat:  Oh.

Colin:  And said, um

Rod:  'You're not Hugh Grundy' was the-

Colin:  Yeah.

Hugh:  No, not, yeah, yeah.

Colin:  'You're- you're not Hugh Grundy.  You're not the Zombies.'  Whilst pointing a gun at them.

Rod:  And the guy said, 'Yes, I am', didn't he, Colin?

Colin:  I, I don't know who said what, but they, they didn't play anymore after that

Pat:  Well

Colin:  so

Pat:  good.

Colin:  it wasn't my letters.  I thought that I-

Hugh:  It's a man with a gun.

Pat:  I, I don't support gun violence, but in this, in this case

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  maybe it was warranted to get those guys off the road.

Hugh:  Absolutely.

Colin:  Let's hope it wasn't a real one.

Pat:  That's true; it cou- if any- hey, if someone pulls a fake gun on me, I'm gonna be just as scared.

Hugh:  You're just as scared.

Pat:  I'm not gonna know, not gonna know what it is.  Alright, so Odessey and Oracle.  What are the- I'm tryin' to find out the album sales on this thing.  Do we know?

Rod:  No, because it's happened over such a long period of time.  I do know that for the first ten years or so, it hardly sold anything, even with a number one record, around the world, I have to say.  I mean, I know it wasn't- it was never a hit in the U.K. - dear old U.K. - even though everyone knows it in the U.K.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  but it wasn't a hit there.  It was a hit everywhere else, and it didn't sell, and then people like Paul Weller started to champion the record, and then people like Dave Grohl, people like Tom Petty, uh, the list goes on and on, and really up to the present day, young, emerging, indie bands.  On, on our book that we just put out [The 'Odessey': The Zombies in Words and Images], Cage the Elephant have just come out and said this is one of the best albums they've ever heard [page 63], you know, and, and this goes on really to the, the present day, and it now sells- I mean it, it doesn't sell like Dark Side of the Moon, but it sells more year in year out as evidenced by our royalties, so we get

Hugh:  Absolutely, yeah.

Rod:  all the time.

Hugh:  Continually improving.

Rod:  Uh.

Pat:  But do you guys have a, a, a gold or a platinum album from this thing?

Rod:  No, I don't think anyone's ever

Hugh:  I don't know, don't know!

Rod:  tallied the amount

Pat:  OK.

Rod:   that it's sold, to be honest.  I-

Hugh:  Maybe it should be

Rod:  Maybe it should.

Hugh:  so that we could have a gold.

Pat:  Yeah, you deserve it.

Rod:  I don't think anyone knows.  I don't think anyone knows how much it's sold, but I- we know from our royalties that now year in year out

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  it sells far more than it did even when 'Time of the Season' was number one.

Pat:  Well, to put it in context for people who haven't heard it, think about, if you think Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper['s Lonely Hearts Club Band] and Village Green Preservation Society, this album is right in there with those great works, without a doubt.

Rod:  Thank you very much.

Pat:  And, you know, currently I like this better because it's so fresh in my mind.

Hugh:  Sure.

Pat:  And it doesn't get old play after play after play.  The sequencing is perf- everything is like perfect!

Rod:  D'you know what?  There's a, um, I'm, I can't tell you too much about this, um, and I, maybe I should keep my mou- my trap shut, but, um, there's, uh, there's a-

Pat:  Is that hard?  For Rod to keep his tra-

Rod:  Yeah.

Hugh:  Definitely.

Pat:  Is it a little bit?

Hugh:  Very much so.  Whoa, that's half the show that is, is him talking.

Rod:  True, but, um, this guy, who's, who's quite a famous documentary maker, wants to make, uh, a documentary about us and Odessey and Oracle, and we've been talking it over in the early stages, and he said, he said, 'I wanted to see if I could get tired of this album' 'cause it, it- like you, very kindly, he said that it was one of his favorite albums of all time, with some of those

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  albums you rec- uh, that you mentioned, and he said, so, he said, 'In the last three months, I've listened to it a hundred times.'

Pat:  I believe it.

Rod:  And he said, 'I can't, I can't ge-, make myself sick of it.'  I, I, I'm sure we would be sick of it if we heard it a hundred times, but, you know, that's-

Hugh:  Well, we played it pretty much a hundred times

Pat:  Yeah, you played it a hundred.

Hugh:  in the last couple of months

Rod:  I guess.

Hugh:  um.

Rod:  I guess we have.

Hugh:  Never get fed up with it.  Never, ever get fed up with it.  Even 'She's Not There' from way back, the beginning times.  Still love playing that, especially the end version.

Rod:  Oh, yeah, yeah.

Pat:  Let's hear, uh, let's hear the song that kicks off the album.  This is "Care of Cell 44."

[Clip of 'Care of Cell 44,' during which Rod makes an indistinct comment, faded during the line 'Saved you the room you used to stay in']

Pat:  Now, what's funny when I was listening to this also, I didn't, um, get that someone was in prison.  "Care of Cell 44," I didn't even really- I don't know why it didn't click with me, but then when I was listening in the car with my sixteen-year-old, she goes, "This [is] about a someone that's getting out of prison," and I was like, "Oh, I don't think- oh, oh, no, you're right; yes, it is!" so....

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  Have you guys heard the cover by Matthew Sweet and Susanna Hoffs?

Rod:  I have, yeah.

Pat:  Can I play a little bit of it?

Rod:  Yeah.

[Clip of that version of 'Care of Cell 44']

Pat:  Just a little taste.  I didn't know if you guys- I brought that 'cause I didn't know if maybe you'd never heard that before or not.

Rod:  No, I've heard that.  She's a, she's a sweetheart.  She's been along to quite a few of our acoustic gigs.

Colin:  Yeah, she's a lovely person, yeah.

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  Yeah, she's been on the show.  She's fantastic.

Hugh:  And the tour-

Colin:  Yeah.

Hugh:  And the tour last year, bless her, she came along to a sound check, um, and come up [sic] and sang, uh, 'This Will Be Our Year,' swapped verses with Colin there, and it was a deep joy, just lovely.

Colin:  Yeah, it was lovely.

Pat:  And, and you're, you're a tall dude, and she's a very tiny lady, so that must have looked, uh, uh, interesting.  Lower the mic!

Rod:  Not as, uh, not as, uh, exceptional as us standing with, um, Conan O'Brien yesterday [indistinct]

Pat:  Oh, yes, he's like 6'5", 6'6".

Rod:  Yes.

Hugh:  Yes, big chap.

Pat:  Also, uh, Susanna Hoffs doesn't age.

Rod:  No.

Colin:  No.

Pat:  Looks exactly the same.

Hugh:  Nope, exactly.

Pat:  Uh, we've talked about the song a little bit earlier.  I wanna play a little bit of "A Rose for Emily."

[Clip of 'A Rose for Emily,' omitting the introduction, faded during the line 'See how the sun is shining again']

Pat:  Now, the other night when you played this live, uh, Rod, you made it a point to tell the audience that the reason that, um- 'cause when you play this, you have the original members and then you have the touring band also, and you made it a point to tell us that the reason that it was augmented is because you wanted it to sound exactly the way it was recorded, and when you recorded it, you were- I think you said multi-tracking

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  and things like that

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  and it was note-for-note.  I mean, it was really- I felt like I was sitting there, uh, hearing- just sitting here with the headphones and  listening to the album except I had the pleasure of seeing you guys actually do it.  It was fantastic.

Rod:  When, when, uh, Chris White- 'cause it was he that came up with the idea

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  that we should do Odessey and Oracle, because he said, 'You know, we've never played this through from beginning to end,' and the current band that Col and I have, we play about five of the songs because they work beautifully with just five people, but the ones that need all the extra notes, the extra keyboards, the extra harmonies that we overdubbed

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  because we had more tracks

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  than we were used to, um, flower when every note is there, and we said, 'OK, if we are gonna do this, then it's gonna cost a lot of money because we have a cast of th- well, it's not thousands, you know, but

Pat:  Ye- sure.

Rod:  we have a lot of people on stage, and, and we need three sprinters carrying everybody around et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, so it has to make sense.  Um, and we said, 'But only if we can replicate every single note that was on the original album,' and, and honestly, Pat, we do that, and, and one of our hardest taskmasters is Darian Sahanaja, who's the Brian Wilson keyboard player and harmony arranger, um, that, that is in love with Odessey and Oracle, and, and it's so great having him 'cause when we rehearsed i- initially, he would say, 'You've almost got that, Rod, but what about that harmony you did originally?'  I'd say, 'Oh, come on, that wasn't there.'

Pat:  He's keepin' you guys in check.

Rod:  [indistinct] He says, 'I think you'll find you did,' you know?  So, he'll play it to us, and I'd say, 'My G--, you're right, Darian,' so, you know, it really is every single note that was on the original album, and that's the way we wanted to do it, and that again, that energises us.

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  We're not just saying, 'Oh, let's go out and make a buck.'  We're not.  We're saying, 'Let's try and recreate this as it was.'

Pat:  And, Colin, you're probably thinking, 'Stop trying to find these notes for me to sing.'

Colin:  Well, uh, um, it i-, I was just thinking of two things.  The first thing is that a lot of Zombies songs, if you don't really concentrate and try and work out what the chord sequences are and exactly what the harmonies are, they diminish.  They start to sound more ordinary.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  You know?  Sometime I'm invited to play with other bands - it's happened in the past - and I've seen them rehearse it, you know, and they, they wanna just get it together in five minutes, and it doesn't, it doesn't sound anyway near as good as singing it with the Zombies.  Um, and I've forgotten what the second thing was I was gonna say!

Pat:  I would think they would wanna impress you more and, and be like, "Colin's gonna sing with us, so we really- let's get this exactly as close as we can."

Colin:  Well, it would be nice to think that, but very often-

Rod:  They miss the subtleties sometimes, don't they?

Colin:  Yeah, they, they really do, and there are a-

Hugh:  Not to mention the chords they miss sometimes.

Colin:  Yes.

Rod:  I know!

Colin:  Without the-

Hugh:  That you wrote.

Colin:  the chord progressions.  Zombies songs are not easy to play, and if- I'll tell you one thing about, um, Zombie harmony- harmonies, the basis of how we got our harmonies together.  Rod is a great harmony singer.  He was a chorister in the local cathedral, and he understands harmonies.  I was a, especially at nineteen, a very naïve singer.  I was never meant- you know, originally, Rod was the leader singer in the- I was the rhythm guitarist, but I became the lead, lead singer, and so what they would say is:  'You sing what's natural for you,' and having a high voice, I will often, when it comes to the chorus, I'll take the top harmony.  It's just a natural thing to do, so we would do that four or five times and estuck- 'stablish that in my mind.  That's my part.  So I'm singing the melody up to the chorus, and then I'm singing the top harmony.  Then Rod would try and set a simple harmony for Chris because Chris's gotta play bass at the same time he's singing the harmony, and ver- very often, it's close to a single-note harmony, but then comes the tricky bit:  Rod, Ro- Rod's gotta fill in all the holes, so because I'm gone up to the top harmony [and] Chris is singing a single note, there's some very tricky harmonies that Rod's got to sing to fill in all the gaps, so I mean, you know, his part might be [sings notes of wildly varying pitches].  It's not like most people do harmonies.

Rod:  I like that melody, Colin.

Pat:  Yeah, yeah, that was nice.

Colin:  Did you write that one down?

Pat:  We have it on tape now.

Colin:  Yeah.  With most people, someone sings the melody; someone takes the top harmony; someone takes the bottom harmony, but we didn't do it like that, and people have come up to me almost in tears, saying, 'How?  How?  How did this harmony work?  Can you explain it to me?' and that's the basis of it.

Hugh:  I'm very honor-

Colin:  We-

Hugh:  Oh, sorry.

Colin:  Sorry.  I say, we had to make it work for us, you know, that was- and that's how it worked.

Hugh:  Well, I'm very honored to, um, to have been asked to sing the bass harmony on 'Changes,' um, so, uh, happily at that time, I was singin' the bass harmony with Paul [Atkinson], and, um, so we re-create that on stage with Jim and I singin' those bits, which is lovely

Colin:  And that-

Hugh:  so I do get to sing.

Colin:  It is more of [indistinct]

Pat:  I'm glad you added that because I was gonna say, "Hugh, what are you doing?  It sounds like everyone's doing the- with the- what are ya-?"

Hugh:  That, that's my little, uh, speciality, and I love that, and I play bongos at the same time, and it's, um, huge fun.

Pat:  Let me ask you guys a question as, as, as being three friends:  when you guys wanna continue doing Zombies stuff, do you, do you get the OK from Hugh?  You're, you're f-

Hugh:  Oh, absolutely!

 

Pat:  You're f-, you're fine with them-

Hugh:  Absolutely fine with it.  Why would that- why would I not be?  Um, these guys are out workin' their socks off, and they're promoting, um, our catalogue, past catalogue, of course Odessey; they're doing songs, as Rod said, that don't require absolutely everybody on it, so, uh, I'm just fantastic about it, of course.

Rod:  And I have to say, Pat, we don't- um, we, we always acknowledge the other guys.  We always do.  Like, for instance, we love to do new stuff [indistinct]

Pat:  Well, you even had a picture of, of Paul up there.

Rod:  [indistinct] at the end because he's, you know, because we're doing this in as original [a] way as possible, and we do recognise Paul for his contribution, but, um, when Col and I go with the band and we do all sorts of stuff from- solo stuff, Argent as well as - you know, things like 'Hold Your Head Up' - as well as, um, all the Zombies stuff, we'll- I mean, I'll always give Chris the credit for writing the great majority of 'Hold Your Head Up' for instance, because people think it was me 'cause it was Argent.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  But Chris wrote most of that, and I'm- even when it's just the two of us, I'll always say that.  Um, we'll always mention, with love and affection, you know, the guys' contribution, and in a way, we're trying to promote our whole life and, and, and our whole catalogue, um, without diminishing any- anybody else's contribution, but also saying we came together in a very natural way 'cause we wanted to play again, and we put something together which evolved into what we're doing now.

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  And that's the new stuff as well as the old stuff, and we're very proud of the new stuff and the fact that it made the, the Billboard top hundred charts when it came out at the end of 2015, and we got a call from Billboard telling us that, you know.  Uh, my G--, I couldn't, couldn't believe it.  What, what's, what's going on?  Uh.

Hugh:  Keepin' the dream alive, I think it's called.

Rod:  Yeah, I, I think you're right, Hugh.  So, you know, we're all, all on the same page, I think.

Pat:  Cool.

Hugh:  Absolutely.

Pat:  I only have you guys for a short time to-day 'cause we still have a, we still have a hard-out, right, Marya?  Just so you guys know.  I had, uh- we were gonna talk about New World, the album from '91.  We were gonna talk about, uh, As Far As I Can See and Breathe Out, Breathe In and Still Got the Hunger [sic].  I mean, you guys- there's- it's not just about Odessey and Oracle; I want people to know out there; I want you to, to look, uh, for these albums, uh, the new stuff, the old stuff, find this- everything's on iTunes.  Colin's solo stuff's on iTunes; Argent's on iTunes, so get out there and, and, and find this music 'cause-

Rod:  Can I just give you a little promotion here?

Pat:  Su- sure.

Rod:  Uh, there was, um- the first two Argent albums before we had a hit record, uh, in many ways are my favorite Argent albums, and they, they get completely lost.  One of the faults with them:  we did them at a very small studio.  We were just starting to make our way as a new band, and the sound was quite small on it, but they were remastered recently.  CBS put out, uh, a five-album or five- or six-album, uh, box set, and they did a fantastic remastering job.  Those first two albums, at last, with the remastering, the sound matched up and competed with whatever you will find today and with the, the later albums of Argent as well, and unfortunately, they've taken it off the market now, but if anyone can listen to those, I think the stuff on the first two albums is a, an absolutely natural progression from the Zombies.  I think there's some wonderful stuff on that, and, and, you know, little promo, you know.  Get people to look out for

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  Argent and Ring of Hands, those first two albums, 'cause I think there's some wonderful stuff on there.

Pat:  And I'm, I'm excited now to start to delve into Colin's solo, uh, catalogue.  What- if I- if- ground zero, where would you tell me to start?  Or the listeners to start?

Colin:  Definitely start with the first solo album, which was produced by Rod and Chris White, so it's, it's almost, uh, it's almost a Zombies album, with just slightly- in just a few, few changes.

Hugh:  Natural progression.

Colin:  Natural progression.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  and, uh, it's called One Year; that's my first album, and it-

Rod:  Big hit in Europe and England.

Colin:  Yeah, it- unfortunately, it was never a hit over here, but, um, it was a big hit in, yeah, over

Pat:  Well, let's-

Colin:  our side of the pond.

Pat:  Listeners, find this album.  Let's make, let's make it a hit now.

Rod:  Very special.

Colin:  Yes, it would be great.

Pat:  I wanna say that, uh, uh, today is May 2nd.  You guys have shows coming up; May 4th, you're gonna be in Houston.  May 6th, you'll be in Dallas, and May 8th, you'll be in Ridgefield, Connecticut, and you said that was a, a make-up show.  Did you have to cancel a show, or?

Rod:  Colin had a severe bacterial infection, and we, we thought the tour was over halfway through, but luckily, you know, he's recovered from it.

Pat:  Yeah, he looks fantastic now.

Rod:  Yeah.

Colin:  Thank you.

Rod:  Do you think so?

Colin:  My plastic surgeon [indistinct] wonderful.

Hugh:  Done a great job.

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  I also wanna thank a couple people; I wanna thank, uh, your tour manager, Marya- how do you say your last name, Marya?

Marya (off-mic):  Glur.

Colin:  Glur.

Pat:  Glur.  Marya Glur.

Colin:  Marya Glur.

Rod:  Marya is, is, uh- I don't know how we managed to tour before she was with us.  I mean, she's had a very, very complex tour this time with-

Hugh:  Sure.

Rod:  I won't go through all the, the difficulties that- it's been a wonderful tour.

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  The best crew that we've ever had, and Marya's had to sort everything from top to bottom.  She's been brilliant.

Pat:  Is she, is she a tough lady?

Rod:  Uh.

Hugh:  Needs to be and is.

Rod:  She has to be.

Hugh:  Very gentle with us.  She says-

Colin:  The important thing is that we just follow her wherever she goes.

Rod:  She calls us, uh, her ducklings.

Colin:  Her ducklings.  Her ducklings.

Hugh:  Her ducklings, yeah.

Colin:  We just, we just follow her.

Hugh:  She says nine o'clock in the lobby, we are.

Colin:  Yeah.

Rod:  And I say, 'No, it's says nine fifteen on [indistinct]'.

Pat:  Also Melani Rogers from Publicity by Design.

Rod:  She's wonderful.

Colin:  Yes.

Pat:  And, uh, Cary Mansfield from the label.

Rod:  Oh, the fiftieth [anniversary edition of Odessey and Oracle]!  Is that Varèse Sarabande?

Pat:  Saraba- is that how you say it?

Rod:  Yeah, that's how you say it, but, um,

Pat:  I couldn't get-

Rod:  our main record company now is, uh, BMG.

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  They took over our- I was very proud that when we did our, our last- it's Still Got That Hunger, um, it was put out on a small independent label, The End, and they did a great job.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  But then BMG have taken it over.

Pat:  Great.

Rod:  It's fantastic.

Pat:  And the cover art for, um, Still Got the Hunger [sic] [was] done by the same person who did the cover art for Odessey and Oracle.

Rod:  Terry Quirk, and he used to be my flatmate, and Chris White was my flatmate when we were writing the album.

Pat:  Whi-

Rod:  It was all done from an apartment, you know.

Pat:  Which word did he misspell on the new album?  Was it "hunger" or "still"?  Which did he- was he able to spell everything?

Rod:  Please don't tell me.  When, when, when, when we first saw the finished artwork [of Odessey and Oracle], that was the first time we realised that it was spelled wrongly, and we said, 'Well, look, we think it looks fantastic'.  We'd been on tour.

Pat:  Yeah.

Rod:  But I said to Chris, 'He's spelled "Odessey" wrong', and, and, and he, and Chris said, 'Well, we'll just get them to change it', and they said, 'No, no, no.  It- You've run out of budget.  That's done.  The album's, uh, it's, it's done.  That, that's coming out like that', and so I said to Chris at the time, 'D'you know what we'll say?  We'll say that it's a cross betwe- it's a play on words; it's a cross between "journey", in other words an adventure, "odyssey"

Pat:  Right.

Rod:  and "ode", you know like, like in the version of, of little stories', and this is the story [we] put out, and we didn't even tell Colin and Hugh this, so

Hugh:  Nope, nope, didn't know that.

Rod:  Colin and I were doing an interview

Colin:  Quite recently.

Rod:  Quite recently.

Colin:  Two or three years ago***, and he told the story that he just told you, and I said-

Rod:  Colin's mouth-

Colin:  'Rod, you've been telling me this other story about the "ode" and the whatever for nearly fifty years'!

Pat:  And you bought it, Colin.

Colin:  Yes, and I bought it.

Hugh:  Likewise.  You weren't alone.

Pat:  Uh, OK.  I wanna thank everyone in the Z-, in the Zombies organization that- this has been smooth sailing the whole time.  No one ever promised anything that wasn't gonna happen.  It was always like, "We're still working on it; we'll let you know."  Everyone was super nice.  They were great to get me and one of my co-hosts tickets for your show this past week, and we got backstage and, and said hello to you guys, so I just wanna thank the whole team.  You guys really, really have a great team, and I, I can just tell.

Rod:  You wait.  You've got another couple of minutes to this interview to see what's gonna happen.

Hugh:  No, it is a team effort, and it takes everyone to put their very best into it.  We've had the greatest road crew.  We've got, obviously, fantastic management, and this lady over here, as we've said before- can't say enough.

Pat:  She got you here on time.  Great communication.  The whole thing.  Great job.  Thank you so much.  Were you familiar with the TV show here Mad Men?

Rod:  Oh, yeah, yes.

Colin:  Yeah.

Pat:  And so, do you get a call from them asking to use your song?

Rod:  It, it- these things happened in- and they've become a bit of a mystery, but we, we know quite often just before it's gonna happen, and we knew that it was- you know 'This Will Be Our Year'

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  was gonna be on that seminal episode of Mad Men, so it- that was great 'cause I'd really got into it late, Mad Men, and, and, and loved it and, and watched most of it, you know, so I was knocked out when that happened.

Pat:  Well, I'll- let's hear a little bit of "This Will Be Our Year."  It's, it's, it's, it's in a great scene of the show, and it's, um, it's a great song.

[Clip of 'This Will Be Our Year', faded during the line 'Now we're there, and we've only just begun']

Rod:  I have to say, Pat,

Pat:  Yes.

Rod:  you've played the right version of that, again.  I take my hat off to you.  You've played the version that- because the, the brass was put on on the mixdown, it's missing on the stereo remixes.  I'm so pleased that you've

Hugh:  Mm.

Rod:  you've chosen the right two mixes of th- of two seminal songs.  That's great.  Well done.

Pat:  W- well, thank you so much.  It- after I heard the stereo, I got the mono version.  It's fantastic.

Rod:  That's where we put all our effort in the mixing of that because stereo was a new thing.

Pat:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rod:  And, and we were told, 'You'll have to mix it in stereo, but you've run out of money', so Chris and I had to put up two hundred pounds - that's all - of our own money to mix it in stereo.  We didn't know what we were doing.  We were much more conversant with mono technology.

Pat:  So it's, it's originally recorded in mono, and then, then they-

Rod:  Mixed in mono

Pat:  Mixed in mono.

Rod:  and then we had to re-mix it in stereo.

Pat:  In stereo.

Rod:  And that was, uh, we did it in a separate room.  It had just been set up.  I prefer the mono mix of the album, but I don't mind hearing the stereo; it's great, except for that track, where you have to have the mono version to get the brass, and 'She's Not There', where you have to have the mono version to get the extra drum [indistinct].

Pat:  Right.  Uh, it's, it's clichéd, but I'm gonna play out with, um, "Time of the Season."  It will also be the-

Hugh:  We don't, we don't mind cliché.

Pat:  OK, good, uh, because it was so many, uh, there's so many great tracks that if I had, if I had hours and hours with you guys, we would cover all those tracks, but I'll play out "Time of the Season."  Very difficult to clap along with that song.  It's like a weird- I can't-

Rod:  [indistinct] again-

Pat:  Like, I have some rhythm, but-

Rod:  It's-

Pat:  at the show the other night, I tried twice.  I'm like, "I can't.  I don't know what's goin' on."

Rod:  This is one of those things where we, we rehearsed the song.  It was, it was written very quickly.

Pat:  Mmhm.

Rod:  And we went into the studio, and Hugh played exactly what I'd sort of suggested that he- it'd be great, you know?

Hugh:  Mmhm.

Rod:  And he just did a backbeat, OK?  And that's what we-

Pat:  He's the guy that's messin' me up.

Rod:  No.

Hugh:  No, no, no, no.

Rod:  No, he isn't.

Hugh:  No.

Rod:  No, he just played a, an off-beat, a backbeat, you know?

Pat:  Yup.

Hugh:  With the, with the tomtom fill.

Rod:  Yeah [starts singing the bass part]

Hugh:  The tomtom [starts singing along with Rod]

Rod:  You know it's that, that- on, on the-

Hugh:  It comes on three.

Rod:  Yeah.  And as we did, because we had the multitracks, I suddenly said to Hugh, 'Hugh, I can hear a little clap before the snare beat and a [exhale] afterward'.  He said, 'Well, go in and do it'.

Hugh (?):  Mm.

Rod:  So one take.  I just went [sings bass part, claps, and exhales], and that was it, and at- it was done as quickly as that, and then someone told me the other night, and I'd never realised this.  They said, 'If you listen to "All Along the Watchtower," [Jimi] Hendrix' thing, Chas Chandler uses exactly the same thing in the middle of "All Along the Watertower,"' and I hadn't realised that, Hugh.

Hugh:  No, neither did I.

Rod:  Until recently.

Hugh:  You're quite right.

Colin:  But also when, if-

Hugh:  So the claps.  [to Colin] Sorry.

Colin:  When you, um, look out at the audience and, and-

Rod:  Yeah!

Colin:  and people are trying-

Pat:  To do it.

Colin:  Some people get it.

Pat:  Yeah.

Colin:  But everyone has a go, but some people get it, and some people are just all over the place.

Rod:  You can always tell-

Pat:  I was all over the place.  I stopped.  I couldn't do it.

Rod:  You can always tell the young bands in the audience 'cause they get it right.

Hugh:  They do.

Colin:  Yeah.

Rod:  'Cause we almost always have a few young bands come to see us.

Pat:  Sure.

Rod:  And you can see a little group of them going [sings bass part, claps, and exhales].  Yeah, OK, they're-

Colin:  Yeah, it's sort of-

[Colin and Rod talking over each other indistinctly]

Colin:  You sing that to yourself, [sings bass part, clap].  Then, then the clap will come.

Rod:  You do it on the-

Pat:  Do the 'doo doo doo' [of the bass part] first.

Rod:  on the [indistinct] beat.

Colin:  [sings bass part, claps, and exhales]

Pat:  [exhales in imitation] alright.

Colin:  [continues singing bass part, claps, exhales]

Pat:  Well, I'm gonna practice on the way home in my car today.

Hugh:  I, I think the clap comes on the 'and' of two.

Rod:  Yeah, one, two.

Hugh:  And the, and the breath comes on the 'and' of three.

Rod:  One, two, [claps and exhales].

Pat:  Very n- well- thank you for coming up with that, Hugh.  But I wanna go 'round the table real quick.  Colin, thank you for your lovely vocals.

Colin:  Well, thank you for having us here today.  It's been great fun having a chat.

Pat:  Great.  I'm so glad that you guys are here.  Rod, thank you for your tremendous keyboard playing.  Uh, it was- I loved when you would just jam.  You seem like a guy that would just- and sometimes I don't like a guy who jams.  This guy's great.  I could listen to this, this keyboard all day long.

Rod:  Bless you.  Thank you.

Hugh:  You wanna hear some of the little jams we've had in the soundchecks.  He- great fun.

Pat:  I bet.  And, Hugh, your amazing drum fills and just the sound is, it's just, it's impeccable.  I mean really, really phenomenal.

Hugh:  Thank you for saying that, Pat.

Pat:  So, um, again.  We're Rock Solid.  Follow us @RockSolidShow.  Zombies are on Twitter, and whoever's manning that Twitter, uh, is, is excellent.  They're always retweeting and tweeting and all kinds of stuff.

Rod:  Yeah.

Pat:  So, let's, uh, let's play out with "Time of the Season," and then I'm gonna get my picture taken with these guys, so here we go.  Also, I got six signed copies.  Uh, we will be giving those away soon, and thank you, Zombies.  Keep making music.  Keep touring the old music, and, uh, you don't, don't back to retirement, Hugh.  Stay out there.

Hugh:  I'm not retired; I'm just doing something different.

Pat:  Alright, good.  Here's "Time of the Season."

['Time of the Season' played in its entirety but faded in at the beginning]   

---

*According to the Zombie Heaven liner notes, the Zombies' first television appearance, which was indeed on Ready Steady Go, as Rod recalls, was on 31 July 1964.

**This may not be specifically what Colin is referring to here, but on page 45 of Greg Russo's Time of the Season: The Zombies Collector's Guide, there are reproductions of letters that Colin and Hugh wrote in 1988 regarding a fake Zombie band.

***The date here is exaggerated.  In the BBC Mastertapes program (from December 2012), Colin says that it was five years ago that he discovered the true origin of the title.